Pow! There Goes Jehovah’s Witnesses Down

A wonderfully and respectfully dressed young lady, Linda passing out the Watch Tower and & Awake Magazines met  Christian at a cafe.

Christian: Why should I be a Jehovah’s Witness?

End of Doomed System

Linda: Because you love Creator Jehovah God, you appreciate the great sacrifice he and his Son Jesus Christ made for you, because you long to see an end to all wickedness and suffering, and because you want to share the knowledge of that hope with others.

Christian: Is that why you became a Jehovah’s Witness?

Linda: Yes and the truth that only Jehovah’s Witnesses have hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil.

Christian: Okay!

Linda: Oh! and also to receive everlasting life in the earthly Paradise we must identify Jehovah Witnesses’ organization and serve God as part of it.

Christian: I do love God. I believe and worship Christ Jesus as my Lord and my God(John 20:28), and I believe that God the Father in his joy and pleasure loved me and demonstrated this by sending His Son to died for my sins showing his holiness and justice. An act that goes beyond appreciation and adoration.

Linda: I understand your position, but I think you are mistaken in thinking Jesus is God.

Christian: Then who is Jesus?

Linda: Jesus is an archangel Michael, the first creation of Jehovah God.

Christian: If Jesus is a creature, then we ought not to worship him as God.

Linda: Yes, reverent adoration should be expressed only to God. To render worship to anyone or anything else would be a form of idolatry, which is condemned in both the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures. — Exodus 20:4, 5; Galatians 5: 19, 20.

WT Oct 15, 1945 p 313

Christian:  Please do take my next question in a loving way:
Why did Jehovah’s Witness worshiped Jesus in their first 75 years?

Linda: That is not true, we never worshiped Jesus!

Christian: Can I  quote you from The Watchtower, your official magazine, October 15th of 1945, page 313?

Linda: Go ahead.

Christian: It says:

“….whosoever should worship Him must also worship and bow down to Jehovah’s Chief One in that capital organization, namely, Christ Jesus.”

Linda: I honestly did not know that. But I believe there must be an explanation for that.

Christian: I thought that too, but then I also read Interesting Queries from July 15th of 1898, Question and Answers in Zion’s Watch Tower page 216.

Question. “… Was he[Jesus] really worshipped, or is the translation faulty?

Answer. Yes, we believe our Lord Jesus while on earth was really worshipped, and properly so”

Christian: I think it hard to deny that your organization did not worship Jesus in their first 75 years.

Interesting Queries p.216

Linda: Oh! I will ask the elders and will give you an answer.

Christian: That will be great.  I find hard to be a Jehovah’s Witness because its organization keep changing what it believes on very important and serious issues which could cost ones soul.

Linda: How so?

Christian: Because if Jesus is God and you have deny to honor him for who He is, then you really do not have  hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil.

Linda: I am sure Jesus is an angel Michael, he cannot be Jehovah God! He is only mighty god but not Almighty.

Christian: Linda, have you ever read The Name of Jesus in The Zion’s Watch Tower of November 1879 page 4?

Linda: No I have not.

Christian:I will quote it from it without adding anything in it:

The Names Of Jesus

Jesus, means Saviour, and we are carried forward from the mere word to the Exalted Official Position, on account of which He can “save to the uttermost all who come unto God by Him.” His position is contrasted with that of men and angels, as He is Lord of both, having “all power in heaven and earth.” Hence it is said, “Let all the angels of God worship him;” [that must include Michael, the chief angel, hence Michael is not the Son of God] and the reason is, because He has “by inheritance obtained a more excellent Name than they.” Michael or Gabriel are perhaps grander names than Jesus, though Jesus is grand in its very simplicity, but the official character of the Son of God as Saviour and King is the inheritance from His Father, which is far superior to theirs, for it pleased the Father that in Him all fullness should dwell. He has given Him a Name which is above every name, that at the Name of Jesus every knee should bow both in heaven and earth. And there is “none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved.”

Linda: I do not know what to say.

Christian: I agree with J. H. Paton, the author of that article, Jesus cannot be angel Michael.

Linda:How do you know that?

Christian: Because no creature, or super creature can redeem another creature. Only a Creator can do that. No creature or super creature is worth of worship. Only to a Creator is worship due.

Linda: I know what you are saying. Can you show me in the Bible that Jesus is not angel Michael?

Christian: Yes! throughout the book of Jude, Jesus is called by the title Lord, the only Master and Lord and at verse nine, you find the following “the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.”(Jude 1:9 ESV)

Linda: How can you know Lord there is  Jesus?

Christian: Because Jesus is the creator of all angels, all were created by him and for him.  Thus he has power and authority over them, while an archangel Michael does not. And also because Jude used the title “Lord” throughout his book as a title of Christ Jesus and “God” as a title for the Father.

Linda: Oh!

Christian: Linda, Jesus said in John 8:24  unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”

WT Nov. 1845 p.313

Linda:I have read that many times before. But wont you have two gods if Jesus is also Jehovah God?

Christian: Not at all, the Bible is clear that there is only one God, and as you read it, you learn the Father is God, the Son is God and Holy Spirit is God. It was this truth that  our church fathers formed a Triune teaching. One God in three distinct persons unified in one and only Jehovah God.

Linda: I know that the Father is Jehovah God but I do not believe that Jesus and the Holy Spirit is also God.

Charles Taze Russell

Christian: Have you  ever come across an acronym: H.A.N.D.S in showing that Jesus is God?

Linda: No! What is it?

Christian: It is an abbreviation to help one remember  how to show that Jesus is God.

Linda: Please do share.

Christian: H is for Honor, Jesus shares the Honors due to God. A is for Attributes, Jesus shares the Attributes of God. N is for Names, Jesus shares the Names of God. D is for Deeds, Jesus shares in the Deeds that God does and S is for Seat, Jesus shares the Seat of God’s throne.

Linda: Oh!

Christian: Now unpacking H.A.N.D.S you would see the whole New Testament is filled with verses showing that Jesus is God.

Linda: I never thought they could be many. I know some which come up when I talk to other Christians who are kind to talk with me. How about Holy Spirit, is it not an invisible active force of Almighty God?

Christian: Jesus viewed Holy Spirit as a person, because he called “him” another helper would teach, guard, and comfort his disciple. Holy Spirit intercedes for believer, he also can be lied,  grieved and blasphemed.

Linda: And these are only possible if the Holy Spirit is a person?

Christian: Yes, one can not lie to or grieve a force.

Putting Jesus in His Place

Linda: Well, I will talk to my elders and see what they would answer all that you told me.

Christian: That would be wonderful. One most important thing I want to share with you, Linda before we apart. Jesus said in John 8:24  “unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.

Linda: I have read that many times before.

Christian: Think about it and here is my home address were you can come, take the elders with you so we could discuss more.

Linda: I will. Thank you for your kindness.

Christian: It is I who should thank you for listening.

Watchtower Sources:

Awake! 8 April 2000, page 26

Watchtower 1/9/89 page 19

The Watchtower, 15/2/1983 page 12

Books To Read:
Putting Jesus In His Place: The Case For The Deity of Christ by Robert M. Bowman Jr. and J. Ed Komoszewski
The Kingdom Of The Cults by Walter Martin

To Christians: When they come and knock at your door, welcome them, love them, share your home and your food and most important the reasons for the  hope in Christ Jesus, our God and Savor.

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8 thoughts on “Pow! There Goes Jehovah’s Witnesses Down

  1. This is fantastic! Great work. I’ve been searching forever for these watchtower publication scans and finally found them. It’s so much more effective when you have the primary source material to show them. Thanks again!

  2. Since many different issues are being brought forth, it may take some time and many posts to respond to them all.

    You asked me to explain what I mean by “organization” and what in the works of Charles Russell work lead me to the position that he did not believe in such an organization?

    My reference was to the JW organization, and the kind of sectarian (we are God’s people, you are not), authoritarian (God is only using our organization, and all must submit to its leadership) organization that Rutherford developed, not just to organization in general. Russell did not believe in such sectarianims or authoritarianism, and he preached against such. Russell refused to accept such a role even over those congregations that had ordained him as their pastor (shepherd). He did not believe in any central authority; he believed that each congregation or group of Bible Students should be independent of control by any such authority.

    I have been studying Russell’s works for about 50 years; while I know what he taught about church organization, it may take some time to find exact statements that show that he did not believe in such an organization as the JWs.

    Eventually, I hope present on my website about 50 quotes that most pointedly show that he did not believe in an organization such as the JWs. Many of the JWs, especially, are not familiar with what Russell taught about such an organization, about sectariansim, etc., and they often presume that there was a JW organization in existence in the days of Russell, and that Russell, like them, believed that only Bible Students were Christian.

    Russell presented his view on church organization in his book, New Creation, Studies 5 through 9. Of course, I cannot reproduce all that he wrote, but if one reads those studies carefully, one can see that he did not believe in any central human controlling authority as the JWs have. Russell book, Studies in the Scriptures, Volume 6, The New Creation, may be found on many sites on the internet.

    Russell did believe that God has his organization in his church on the earth, but he never took the view that the Bible students’ movement is the only true church, or that the Bible students are God’s only true organization, etc., as the JWs claim for their organization. Russell never claimed for himself or the Bible students’ movement as a whole that either he, or the Bible students’ movement, were the only instruments that God was using. Russell viewed such as sectarianism.

    In 1910, Russell stated:

    quote: The Christian public, however, and especially Bible students, are not deeply sympathetic with the federation idea. They realize that at most it would be a gloss of deception so far as doctrinal oneness is concerned; and that otherwise it is but a business or worldly combination. Bible students are more and more coming to prefer the Lord’s way -the Scriptural way. They are coming to realize that what God’s people need is not more organization but less organization, not more explicit creeds but the standard of fellowship which the Bible sets up.

    They are learning that this simple test is: A turning from sin and acceptance of the Lord Jesus as the Redeemer from sin and death and the full consecration of the believer, mind and body, to know and to do the Lord’s will to the best of his ability under the Lord’s providential guidance. We all see that this simple bond of fellowship is the only one laid down in God’s Word and that whatsoever is more than this is injurious bondage to men and to systems. :endquote
    ——The above is from Russell’s sermons, as reported in: The Weekly Enquirer, June 23, 1910; Sermon: WORKMEN NEEDING NOT TO BE ASHAMED. The entire sermon is published in book called Pastor Russell’s Newspaper Sermons and may be found online on several of the sites owned by Bible Students, such as the mostholyfaith site, as well as some other sites.

    That Russell did not believe in a the idea of such an organization as the JWs, can also be seen from Russell statement as published in “The Bible Students Monthly”, Volume 7 (1915), Number 9, in the article entitled, “The Catholic Church — St. Peter’s Kingdom Keys”. Notice that this was published about one year before Russell died.

    quote: I am aware that several churches claim to be Catholic, each declaring itself the true Church and reprobating the others as heretical. I take the still broader catholic ground-that the word catholic means general; and that any limitation such as Roman Catholic, Greek Catholic, etc., to that extent denies their catholicity.

    Perhaps, therefore, I am really saying that I am more catholic than any of these brethren.

    I must prove my point or be misunderstood. I hold, and few, if any, will dispute it, that the one catholic or general Church of Christ is that mentioned in the Bible-” the Church of the Firstborns, written in Heaven.” If this be admitted, my next proposition is that the Lord in Heaven records as members of His true Church all the saintly-whether Roman Catholics, Anglican Catholics, Greek Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, or Presbyterians, etc.-and none others.

    Have we not here the one Church, catholic, universal, the only Church which the Bible recognizes? In the past we have been too narrow and have sup posed that God was as narrow as ourselves. It was on this account that Presbyterians, Roman Catholics, Anglicans, Baptists, Methodists persecuted and were persecuted, each thinking itself the true Church. Are we not all getting broader conceptions of our God and of His Church? Do we not see that we were mistaken in calling the outward organization the Church of Christ instead of remembering that the Lord alone writes the names of the Church, that He alone reads the hearts, that He alone is the Judge, and that He alone has the right to blot out the names of reprobates?

    St. Paul wrote against sectarianism, already manifest in his day-some saying:”I am of Paul”; others, “I am of Peter”; etc. The Apostle asks, “Is Christ divided: “(1 Cor. 1:10-13) He explains that these sectarian names signified a spirit of division that failed to recognize the true Head of the Church, His true representatives and His true members. The entire foundation of divided Christianity would disappear and the true Church of Christ be speedily manifest, if true catholicity were acknowledged. :endquote
    —-The above may be found reproduced on several of the Bible students’ sites, as well as some other sites, in a book called “Harvest Gleanings” (Volume I), beginning on page 735.

    Another statement of Russell that shows that he did not view himself or the Watch Tower or the Bible Students movement as an sole instrument, as the JWs claim for their organization, are his words of 1910, under “Why Forbid God’s Work?”

    quote: Whenever we find anyone doing a good work, helping the world in any sense of the word, whether it be by keeping a mission or helping the heathen or helping a newsboy, or by some other work, to oppose sin or relieve suffering, we should be sympathetic to the extent that we see they have good hearts, good intentions,
    good desires. Instead of working against them or hindering them in any manner, we should speak an encouraging word and endeavor to lead them to fuller light. This does not mean that we should follow with them and leave our special commission of teaching the Truth which the Lord has given us, but that we should not object to the Lord’s using various agencies for accomplishing his work. We should not think
    that we alone have the privilege of engaging in his work; that we have patent rights on his work, and can hinder others from doing what they may be able to do and take pleasure in doing. :endquote
    —The above may be found in the book, What Pastor Russell Said, Q279:4. This book may also be found online on many of the Bible students’ sites, as well as some other sites.

    Russell, however, because of the way he applied the harvest work to a physical separation from denominations, did not seem to realize that this view was actually creating — or laying the groundwork for the creation of — the very sectarianism which he preached against. Likewise, the general view that most of the Bible students had of the faithful and wise servant was also generating a view amongst the Bible Students of Brother Russell as being something of a central authority, even though he, himself, refused such authority.
    ==
    Most, if not all, of the other issues presented, the worship of Jesus, the Most High, the only true God, Colossians 2:9, the imagined hypostatic union of Jesus, etc., has already been scripturally answered on my websites; nevertheless, God willing, I will return another time to address these matters.

    If any man serves, let it be as of the strength which God supplies, that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belong the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen. — 1 Peter 4:11, World English.

    • Hej Reslight,

      Thank you for your comment.

      You wrote Russell did not believe in authoritarianism and that he believed that each congregation or group of Bible students should be independent of control by any such authority.

      I would like to defer, saying Russell controlled everything of what the Bible student should believe or should not believe. He set his authoritative understanding of the Bible as supreme, and ought to be followed by his followers or they would be lost alone.

      Here is what he wrote the following of his Studies in the Scriptures in The Watchtower, September 15, 1910 p 298:

      “If the six volumes of Scripture studies are practically the Bible, topically arranges with Bible proof texts given, we might not improperly name the volumes The Bible In An Arranged form. That is to say, they are not mere comments on the Bible, but they are practically the Bible itself.”

      (emphasis added)

      This is a claim of authority and not only of authority but sadly to say, of arrogance and egotism.

      He goes on:

      Furthermore, not only do we find that people cannot see the divine plan in studying the Bible by itself, but we see, also, that if anyone lays the Scripture Studies aside, even after he has used them, after he has become familiar with them, after he has read them for ten years – if he then lays them aside and ignores them and goes to the Bible alone, though he has understood his Bible for ten years, our experience shows that within two years he goes into darkness. On the other hand, if he had merely read the Scripture Studies with their references, and had not read a page of the Bible, as such, he would be in the light at the end of two years, because he would have the light of the Scriptures.

      Did he believe that each congregation or group of Bible Students should be independent of control by any such authority. NO, He believe they should follow his Scripture Studies authority(equaling it with the Bible itself) or they will goes into dark.

      I am looking forward to your understand of Russell rightly worshiping of Jesus.

      In Christ Jesus,

      Prayson

  3. have never read such rubbish in all my life. Jesus Christ who in his original capacity as the Word, is the firstborn of ‘all’ creation. (Colossians 1:15) This is why he is referred to as the ‘only begotten’, because this is the only one who was personally created by Almighty God; all else was created by the Word who worked beside Almighty God as a master worker. (Proverbs 8:22-31)

    Thr Trinity like most other unscriptural doctrines and faiths, is man-made.

    They ‘all’ teach a faith of ‘fear’, whereas Jesus taught the good news of the ‘second chance’ for ‘all’ mankind in that there will be aresurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous [no exceptions!].(Acts 24:15)

    The only Christian movement recorded in the Holy Scriptures is ‘The Way’ (Acts 19:9, 23) I am one of them.

  4. I am not with the JWs, but many do not realize that Charles Taze Russell did not believe in such an organization as the JWs. From the JWs’ false perception of matters, Charles Taze Russell spoke for their organization. In reality,, Russell did not believe in such an organization, and Russell preached against such sectarianism and authoritarianism.

    [links Removed]

    Likewise, what Paton expressed was his own opinion, Paton did not speak for the JW organization. No such organization existed in the days of Russell.

    Nor did Russell believe in the message that one has recognize any such organization to survive Armageddon. Indeed, what Russell taught on salvation was almost the very opposite of what the JWs teach.
    [links Removed]

    Russell did not say that one should worship Jesus as being Jehovah, the only Most High. Many people are worshiped in the Bible without any thought of giving to the creation worship that only belongs to the Most High. Likewise, there is no indication any where in the Bible that anyone gave worship to Jesus that only belongs to the Most High, or that Jesus accepted worship as being the Most High. He accepted worship as the one sent by the Most High, and who spoke for the Most High, but not as being the Most High.
    [links Removed]

    Most of the early protestant reformers believed that Jesus is Michael and taught such long before Russell was born. My own study on the archangel, including Jude 1:9, may be found at:
    godandson(dot)reslight(dot)net

    [Two links above maintained]

    Regarding the Hebraic usage of the words for “God”, see: Here

    [Original comment stored]

    • Hej thank you for a great input. Sorry I had to remove some of the links. I would like to discuss on Jesus being an angel(creature) in this post after I answer some of the objection you rose.

      1. Could you explain what do you mean by organization and where in Charles Russell work lead you to the position that he did not believe in such an organization?

      Zion’s Watch Tower:

      H. Paton as a regular contributor expressed his own opinion, in Zion’s watch tower Edited and published by C. T. Russell(probably not endorsing it). My point was, within the movement, and here on the same issued magazine, we notice a huge collision of idea on very important issue.

      Russell And Jesus’ Worship:

      You wrote Jesus accepted worship as the one sent by the Most High(Father). If that is so then Jesus is God. Only God ought to be worshipped. Men or angels refused to accept worship.(Acts 14:11-15 and Rev. 19:10; Rev. 22:8-9.)

      I did not claim Jesus is the Most High. But I will claim that The Lamb(Jesus) and Most High are worship together(Revelation 5)

      Jesus Is Michael!:

      2. Which “most” early protestant reformers believe Jesus is Michael? Please list names and the period to which they taught.

      I read your works and I believe you overlooked that through out the book of Jude, Jesus is called Lord(kyrios = OT Yahweh) and The Father as God(theos) to which leaves Jude’s reader to believe that it Michael rebuke Satan in Lord Jesus name.(This truth is solidified with the fact that some earlier manuscripts also have the name “Jesus” in v. 5 as being the one who saved people out of Egypt)

      In your work you reach this conclusion:

      “We conclude that Jesus is Michael the archangel from the fact that it is Jesus who, preparatory to the his Millennial reign, takes his Millennial power and brings the time of trouble upon the nations (2 Thessalonians 1:7,8; 1 Thessalonians 4:16; Revelation 11:15-18; 19:11- 21), which Daniel said Michael would do (Daniel 12:1, compared with Matthew 24:21)”

      But reading Daniel 10 and then comparing it with Revelation 1:12-20 , one arrives at a conclusion that Christ Jesus, Daniels 7‘s Son of Man is not Michael(creature).

      Introducing the descriptions of the Person, Daniel and John Saw:

      Daniel 10:5-6 ESV

      [5] I lifted up my eyes and looked, and behold, a man clothed in linen, with a belt of fine gold from Uphaz around his waist. [6] His body was like beryl, his face like the appearance of lightning, his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and the sound of his words like the sound of a multitude.

      Revelation 1:12-16 ESV

      [12] Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands, [13] and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest. [14] The hairs of his head were white, like white wool, like snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire, [15] his feet were like burnished bronze, refined in a furnace, and his voice was like the roar of many waters. [16] In his right hand he held seven stars, from his mouth came a sharp two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining in full strength.

      Daniel and John’s Reaction and Action of the Man they Saw:


      Daniel 10:9-12 ESV

      [9] Then I heard the sound of his words, and as I heard the sound of his words, I fell on my face in deep sleep with my face to the ground.
      [10] And behold, a hand touched me and set me trembling on my hands and knees. [11] And he said to me, “O Daniel, man greatly loved, understand the words that I speak to you, and stand upright, for now I have been sent to you.” And when he had spoken this word to me, I stood up trembling. [12] Then he said to me, “Fear not, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart to understand and humbled yourself before your God, your words have been heard, and I have come because of your words.

      Revelation 1:17-18 ESV
      [17] When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, [18] and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.

      From these I can conclude that the person speaking to Daniel is the same as the one speaking to John. If that is granted then Daniel 10:13 point out that Michael “one of the chief princes” is not Jesus.

      Question on Jude:

      How do you answer Jude’s usage of Lord as title of Jesus Christ through out his letter? Can you defend that the title Lord in Jude refer to Jesus except one on verse 9?

      Thank you for the comment.

      In Christ Jesus,
      Prayson

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