5 Simple Arguments Showing Jesus is God

Is Jesus God? Outlined arguments for Deity of Jesus from His Deeds

I. Salvation Argument For Deity of Christ Jesus(Adopted from Athanasius)

1. No creature can redeem another creature.
2. According to Jehovah’s Witnesses, Jesus Christ is a creature.
3. Therefore, according to Jehovah’s Witnesses, Jesus Christ cannot redeem humanity.
4. It is not true that Jesus Christ cannot redeem humanity.
5. Therefore it is not true that Jesus Christ is a creature.

Simpler Form

1. Only God and God alone can save.
2. Jesus Christ saves.
3. Therefore Jesus Christ is God.

II. Creation Argument For Deity of Christ Jesus

1. Only God and God alone created all things that were created.
2. Jesus Christ created all things that were created.
3. Therefore Jesus Christ is God.

III. Ultimate Judge Argument For Deity of Christ Jesus

1. Only God and God alone is the Ultimate Judge of all people.
2. Jesus Christ is the Ultimate Judge of all people.
3. Therefore Jesus Christ is God.

VI. Omni-X Argument For Deity of Christ Jesus

1. Only God and God alone is Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient and Morally Perfect.
2. Jesus Christ is Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient and Morally Perfect.
3. Therefore Jesus Christ is God

V. Forgiveness of Sin Authority Argument For Deity of Christ

1. Only God and God alone has authority to forgive all sins.
2. Jesus Christ has authority to forgive all sins.
3. Therefore Jesus Christ is God.

Note: The term God stands for Jehovah, Yahweh(OT Septuagint: Kyrios, Lord) and Save stands for breaking of the power of sin and giving eternal life.

“Through Jesus” Common Objection on Creation Argument, Compare John 1.1-3(through Jesus) with Romans 11:33-36 (through God)

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28 thoughts on “5 Simple Arguments Showing Jesus is God

  1. Hello Jet,

    You state:

    1. KEEP LEARNNING FROM THE JEHOVAHS WITNESSES THEY KNOW THE TRUTH. THATS WHY THEY GO TO YOUR DOOR TO SHOW YOU WHAY JESUS TOLD THEM TO SHOW YOU FROM THE BIBLE SO YOU WILL BE SAVED. THEY MAKE NOOOO MONEY ON WHAT THEY DO. THEY JUST LOVE YOU.
    Actually the movement today is in great error due to the fact that since the death of Charles Taze Russell who taught the truth of the ‘second chance’ for ‘all’ mankind “There will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.” [No exceptions] (Acts 24:15)

    Rutherford the ‘apostate’ changed the time period of the parable of the ‘sheep and the goats’ (Matthew 25:32) from the end of the Sabbath Millennium to this the Gospel Age and turned the Gospel into a faith of fear.

    However, his cleverness has been caught out by the scriptures themselves which state in verse 46 that those found to be sheep, go into everlasting life [salvation]. This can only happen at the end of the Sabbath Millennium when all have been resurrected and brought up to perfection to be judged equally.

    Also, except for the anointed ‘little flock’ who rule with him, (Revelation 20:6) over whom the second death has no authority; all must stand against Satan when he is let loose at the end of the Sabbath Millennium to tempt the human race for the last time.

    Those who fail this time will go into the ‘second death’! (Revelation 21:8) Now you cannot be in danger of the ‘second’ death until you have been resurrected from the first one! Jesus paid the price of Adamic death [death without a resurrection], so that we might all have a second chance by way of the reurrection on the ‘last day’. (John 11:24) This ‘last day’ is the Sabbath Millennium of The Christ of which Christ is the loerd of.

    Alexander

  2. KEEP LEARNNING FROM THE JEHOVAHS WITNESSES THEY KNOW THE TRUTH. THATS WHY THEY GO TO YOUR DOOR TO SHOW YOU WHAY JESUS TOLD THEM TO SHOW YOU FROM THE BIBLE SO YOU WILL BE SAVED. THEY MAKE NOOOO MONEY ON WHAT THEY DO. THEY JUST LOVE YOU.

  3. JEHOVAH GOD IS THE ALMIGHTY WHO CREATED ALL.JEHOVAH GOD ALMIGHTY ALSO CREATED HIS SON JESUS CHRIST,,WHO ISNT THE ALMIGHTY GOD, JEHOVAH IS JESUSES FATHER. JEHOVAH HAD INSPIRED THE BIBLE FOR US TO READ ,SO WE WOULD UNDERSTAND THIS. IT PROVES IN HUNDREDS OF SCRIPTURES IF NOT THOUSANDS JEHOVAHS PURPOSE FOR SENDING JESUS TO EARTH… HE DID NOT SEND HIMSELF. HE COULD HAVE DONE ANYTHING HE IS THE ALMIGHTY GOD JEHOVAH. INSTEAD HE SENT HIS SON FOR REASONS! THOSEREASON ARE TO TEL US WHAT HE SAID HIS FATHER WANTED HIM TO SAY TO US. JESUS ISNT ALMIGHTY,,JESUS CAME TO TELL US THE WAY TO JEHOVAH IS THREW HIM,,,,JEHOVAH SAID THE WAY TO ME IS THREW MY SON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ALSO JEHOVAHS WITNESSES HAVE THE TRUE RELIGON, THEY READ AND PREACH ONLY FROM THE SCRIPTURES. THEY DONT KEEP SINNING LIKE BORN AGAINS DO JUST SO THE BORN AGAINS CAN KEEP SINNING THEY SAY JESUS DIED SO WE CAN KEEP SINNING,,THAT IS SO WRONG… FURTHER MORE JEHOVAH DIDNT CHANGE HIS PUROPSE FOR US,, ONLY 144,000 WILL GO TO HEAVEN AND HELP WITH THE NEW KINGDOM TO RULE OVER THIS EARTH! YES AND A NEW EARTH WE WILL HAVE,, ITS ALREADY STARTING TO BE MADE WITH EARTHQUAKES AND NEW OCEANS AND NEW LAND. FOR US!! NO NOT EVERYMAN AND WOMAN IS CHOSEN TO HELP RULE AND BE KINGS WITH JESUS.. AND I LOVE THIS EARTH JEHOVAH GAVE US.. SOON HE WILL WIPE EVERY TEAR FROM OUR EYES AND DEATH WILL BE NO MORE. AND HE WILL BE RESURECTING OUT DEAD LOVED ONES TOO,WHICH HE KEPT IN HIS MEMORY FOR THAT SPECIAL DAY.. NO OUR DEAD ONES ARE ASLEEP,AND KNOW NOTHING AND FEEL NOTHING UNTIL JEHOVAH WAKES THEM.. THEYRE NOT FLYING AROUND HEAVEN.. LOL!! THE BIBLE CLEARLY SHOWS US WHAT DEATH IS. AND THAT JESUS ISNT THE ALMIGHY…. ALSO JEHOVAH WITNESSES ARE NOT FREEMASONS,,, JEHOVAHS WITNESSES HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH SATAN . JEHOVAHS WITNESSES HAVE THE TRUTH AND KNOW JEHOVAH GOD PERSONALLY. LIKE YOU CAN TOO IF YOU START STUDYING WITH A JEHOVAHS WITNESS ,YOU WILL SEE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE LIES PEOPLE TELL ABOUT JEHOVAHS WITNESSES AND THE TRUTH WITH YOUR OWN EYES EARS AND SOUL. JEHOVAHS PEOPLE KNOW THAT THEY WILL BE LIED ABOUT BECAUSE OF JEHOVAH GOD ALMIGHTYS NAME AND TRUTH.. JESUS AND JEHOVAH AND HIS ANGELS ARE THE ROAD TO EVERLASTING LIFE FOREVER ON EARTH.. AND IF YOUR A ANOINTED OF THE 144,000 THEN IN HEAVEN….

  4. Christian greetings Prayson Daniel,

    Thank you very much for your reply,

    My apologies for not always answering you immediately but you are only one of a number of individuals with whom I am also currently holding Theocratic dialogue.

    You state that I have not answered your questions when actually I have done this right down to the last detail, with qualification.

    Either you are not reading theses answers correctly, even though they could not be plainer; or like the American nation you have a difficulty understanding correct English.

    This is not intended as a slight on your part as we have had many recent instances where those educated by Oxford English Tutors [like the actress Mira Furlan] found that when arriving in America, and speaking to people; they could not grasp the sense of what she was saying due to the fact that Americans use the own ‘dog’ English.

    This is a great pity, in fact and American President once said: “Britain and America are two nations separated by the same language.”

    The answers which I have given to you have also been sent to others who have understood them completely.

    I am however getting the impression that your own understanding of God’s Word is more of a misunderstanding.

    Some of the questions which you are putting to me are out of context with the subject itself.

    Your first question: “Are these three distinct gods “properly termed” God (Worthy of true worship)?”

    Answer: The question of worship in this instance does not even come into the equation, due to the fact that the scriptures are merely stating the exact position and identification of the three ‘gods’ mentioned.

    However, to answer the question which you have put, I will do so with the correct scripture in the words of Jesus himself: “It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.” (Luke 4:8)

    Now this is an interesting answer, because here is the one who is named and identified in Isaiah 9:6 as the Mighty God; rebuking the one identified as the ‘god of this world’ in 2 Corinthians 4:4 that he too should be worshipping Almighty God who has already identified himself in Exodus 6:3 as Jehovah.

    Therefore Isaiah 45:5 is a statement from Almighty God to his ‘chosen’ nation Israel that for them at that time there was no other God but him. Again, one has to take notice of the context in which these things are addressed.

    To answer your second question, Jesus was prayed to by the early Christians and followers of the faith due to the fact that he is also the mediator between Almighty God and mankind. The only time he was worshipped, just as today Catholics worship the Virgin Mary; is due to the error of their own misunderstanding of what is required by God and not according the Babylon the Great [The World Empire of false religion!]

    To answer your third question which is a little confusing because you do not seem to know exactly what it is you are asking. Jesus is the first-born of all creation simply because his is the first of all creation. This means that out of all other creations which followed, he is the only one created and fashioned by the hand of his Father Almighty God; as stated in Colossians 1:15 “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;” One cannot put it plainer than that.

    With regard to ‘first created’ ‘only-begotten’ ‘twice’, it is not me that is moving anywhere but the scriptures themselves which are declaring this.

    As I quoted last time: “The first time as the “…first-born of all creation…” (Colossians 1:15) and the second time as …the first-born from the dead,…” (Colossians 1:18)

    To put it plain and simple, before anything came into existence except Almighty God who was already there: Almighty God created The Word by his own hands. Therefore this one became the only-begotten first-born of all creation. No other creation bears this distinction!

    When later as a human, he was executed to pay the price for Adam’s disobedience; he ceased to exist. But on the third day after this, Almighty God re-created him again personally by his own hands and he therefore became the first-born from the dead. So personally created ‘twice’ by the same person, means that he was also ‘begotten’ ‘twice’!

    Unfortunately I find your last question a little stupid. As I mentioned previously, the four attributes of Almighty God are Justice, Power, Love and Wisdom. As we are also created in the character image of Almighty God, these attributes are with us from birth. So it was with Almighty God who has always existed and therefore has always possessed these attributes.

    Anything further we are not informed due to the fact that it is beyond our comprehension!

    I look forward to your reply.

    Alexander

  5. Christian greetings Prayson Daniel,

    Thank you very much for your reply,

    The reason for the repetitive answers is because once the correct answer has been given, to deviate is to error; therefore there is no other answer to give. Jesus used the same method in that he would continually repeat The kingdom of the heavens is this, or The kingdom of the heavens is that. Etc.

    I received an e-mail a few years ago from a contact who said that when enquiring of a certain matter to others, sometimes they would answer this, sometimes they would answer that and sometimes they would change it altogether.

    Therefore in respect of myself, he noticed that I always came back with the same answer with scriptural qualification. His conclusion was that because of this, what I am saying must be the truth; because the truth has no need of change. So the watchword is, repetition for emphasis.

    Your questions:
    (1) “How do you explain your three gods in the testimony of Monotheist belief (Shema: God is one?)” Jesus also confirms this: “…Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.” (Mark 12:29) NMTCS However, there is no contradiction here as I pointed-out last time.

    The three Gods ‘stated’ in the Holy Scriptures are all separate and distinct.

    Almighty GOD the supreme Creator under whom his only-begotten Son became a master worker in this task. (Exodus 6:3; Proverbs 8:22, 30)

    The Mighty God the Prince of Peace and the only begotten god. (Isaiah 9:6; John 1:18)

    The god of this present world order in opposition (2 Corinthians 4:4)

    Now as you can see, it is the Holy Scriptures themselves which define these three according to their individual status which still confirms that there is only ‘one’ Almighty God. So like I sai last time: “Again, if you have a problem with this take it up with Almighty God, he caused it to be written.”

    (2) “Why was Jesus properly worshipped by the first church? (+ Charles Taze Russell and his followers till 1954) if he is an angel.” Well you hae certainly got yourself mixed-up here. For a start, Jesus was never worshipped for himself by the original church; Almighty God was worshipped in and through the name of Christ Jesus the same as many of us do today.

    Also, there is no evidence in the Bible that Jesus, even as the Word, was ever an angel. As I stated before, John 1:18 refers to him as “…the only-begotten god…” [Not Almighty God] so there is no contradiction here.

    I don’t know where you got this Charles Taze Russell 1954 from but on October 31st 1916 Charles Taze Russell passed away. The movement which he had formed, split-up under J.F. Rutherford [The Apostate] and after changing a few of the correct teachings to his own; he re-named it Jehovah’s Witnesses.

    Charles Taze Russell’s own original followers broke away and formed into small groups and carried on the correct teaching of the Good News of God’s Kingdom and the ‘second chance’ by way of a resurrection for ‘all’ mankind which is still being taught today. (Matthew 24:14; Acts 24:15)

    (3) “How do you move from Colossians 1:15 prototokos (first-born) to prototoktistos (first created)?” In the same way as the Holy Scriptures. In fact if you read it correctly it refers to the Word as the “…first-born of all creation…” Colossians 1:15. So not my words but God’s Word through the Holy Spirit.

    In fact, if you check further as I have already mentioned before; he was actually ‘begotten’ twice!

    The first time as the “…first-born of all creation…” (Colossians 1:15) and the second time as …the first-born from the dead,…” (Colossians 1:18)

    So again, the Holy Scriptures confirm all that I have been saying.

    (4) You really must take note of my words on this, a Jesus (Proverbs 8 wisdom) your wording is incorrect; it actually states: “Almighty God produced me as the beginning of his way,” So no contradiction here with your b “Jesus is the first creature” this is quite correct!
    I look forward to your reply.

    Alexander

    • Dear Alexander,

      Thank you your reply. Its sad that you have not answer the questions(expect Q2:) Yet I would do the follow up questions:

      1. Are these three distinct gods “properly” termed God(worthy of true worship)? How do you answer Isaiah 45:5(I am the LORD, and there is no other,besides me there is no God)

      2. If Christ Jesus was not worship by the first church, who do you explain the archeological documents both from Christians and non-Christian that records that Jesus was prayed to, and worshiped?

      3. Christ Jesus is the firstborn of all creation, but my question is how do you move from that to He is first creation?explain how you moved from Col 1:15 prōtotokos(firstborn) to prōtotoktistos(first created)? You keep using first created(twice), but I wish to know how do you move from one to another?

      4. Before wisdom was produce, was God without wisdom?

      In Christ Jesus,
      Prayson

  6. Christian greetings Prayson Daniel,

    Thank you very much for your reply, as requested I have read, re-read and pondered over your words as requested; so perhaps we need some clarification here. The Hebrew word ‘good’ in respect of the period in which this is used, carries a far more greater significance than our language today. Therefore this was used in the same way as omnipotent, thereby indicating that Jesus was equal with God; which by his answer he flatly denied!
    After all, this is why he stated in John 14:28 “…`I go unto the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I.” KJ21 This says it all, how can one be greater and equal at the same time? Also, if Jesus had been equal to Almighty God that in itself would invalidate the ‘ransom’ which had to be of ‘equal’ value! Plus with an equal, God would cease to be Almighty!

    Incidentally, this word ‘good’ is used in the same manner as ‘fool’ in Matthew 5:22 which again different to our rendering of the word today was actually referring to the vernacular – F….!

    I continue to be amazed that you are trying all you can to implement what is not. As I have already stated:

    The Triune God you believe in does not exist, therefore your belief in the Trinity is unfounded, it was invented by the Emperor Theodosius Magnus in 390 A.D.

    Origin of the Christian Trinity

    Of the momentous happenings of the age of Theodosius, which are recounted in detail in the original, none exceeded in importance the final triumph of the orthodox group among the Christians and the final effective destruction of paganism. “Let us,” said Theodosius in the first of fifteen severe edicts aimed primarily at the Arians, “believe the sole deity of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, under an equal majesty and a pious trinity.” Persons so believing might “assume the title of Catholic Christians; and as we judge that all others are extravagant madmen, we brand them with the infamous name of heretics….” Page 547

    (The Portable Gibbon edited by Dero A, Saunders THE DECLINE AND FALL
    OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE)

    Also your Triune God poses an even bigger problem, three in one?

    This also makes nonsense of the Trinitarian claim when Jesus said to his chosen followers “My Father is in me just as I am in him, and I am in you just as you are in me.” Referred to in the same context as the Doctrine of the Trinity, we would suddenly have not ‘three in one’ but ‘one hundred and forty-four thousand and three in one!’ Totally ridiculous! (Revelation 7:4-8; 14:1; 20:4 NWT KJV AMP)
    “I and my Father are one.” [in purpose not person] (John 10:30 KJV CEV) Greek context. “If you have seen me, you have seen the Father [also].” [in representation but not in person] (John 14:9 NWT) Greek context. In the same context, the Viceroy of India used the same statement to the Indian people when he said: “If you have seen me you have seen Her Majesty Queen Victoria [in representation but not in person].”
    Getting these things right is simply a matter of understanding the context of which ever language [Hebrew or Greek] the word or scripture is being quoted from. Those in the past just as now, who are desirous of putting their own man-made doctrines forward, rely on the fact that the majority of individuals have no knowledge or understanding of the etymological foundation from which these words are translated.

    So basically, you are in opposition to Jesus and God’s written Word.

    Although certain scriptures refer to the Creator as ‘Mighty God’ this does not detract from the fact that compared to other gods his is still above them and therefore ‘Almighty’ (Exodus 6:3) Now this Is Almighty God speaking and not me, so if you have a problem with this you had better take it up with him; because he caused it to be written!

    You seem to delight in picking out what you feel is something which might just boost you own belief, but in the end these straight-forward statements of scripture with the additional evidence which I have already provided prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that the trinity in whatever shape or form has never existed and never will. Unless of course you are calling Almighty God a liar!

    Your comment: Firstborn,

    Again you are reading my words yet not understanding what I am saying. First-born is the firstborn of any progeny, in the case of the word, he is the first-born of all creation; which also means that he is the first of all creation. This is plain common sense.

    Your next: Jesus is God, Jesus is not God.

    Check your Bible.

    The three Gods ‘stated’ in the Holy Scriptures are all separate and distinct.

    Almighty GOD the supreme Creator under whom his only-begotten Son became a master worker in this task. (Exodus 6:3; Proverbs 8:22, 30)

    The Mighty God the Prince of Peace and the only begotten god. (Isaiah 9:6; John 1:18)

    The god of this present world order (2 Corinthians 4:4)

    Again, if you have a problem with this take it up with Almighty God, he caused it to be written.

    Also, I stated that Jesus was created first as the Word, then later as a man he provided the corresponding ransom required to pay Adam’s debt, then after his raising-up for the dead he was clothed with immortality and the status of a God. [Not Almighty God].

    Your next: Attacking a strawman.

    Jesus said to his chosen followers “My Father is in me just as I am in him, and I am in you just as you are in me.” Referred to in the same context as the Doctrine of the Trinity, we would suddenly have not ‘three in one’ but ‘one hundred and forty-four thousand and three in one!’ Totally ridiculous!

    And so it is, due to the fact that the koine Greek in which it is written was misunderstood and actually reads: “My Father is in agreement with me just as I am in agreement with him, and I am in agreement with you just as you are in agreement me; for a kingdom.” Now it makes sense!

    The Church Father Irenaeus is not refuting me, he is refuting the Apostle Paul who is the replacement of Judas Iscariot and twelfth Apostle who states: “For the god of this world has blinded the unbelievers’ minds [that they should not discern the truth], preventing them from seeing the illuminating light of the Gospel of the glory of Christ (the Messiah),Who is the Image and Likeness of God.” 2 Corinthians 4:4 AMP

    So here is the third ‘god’ mentioned in the Holy Scriptures by the Apostle Paul, a god who is also manipulating the affairs of mankind. The late Winston Churchill confirmed the presence of this one when just before the out-break of World War II he said: “The nations are striving for peace but an unseen hand is driving us steadily towards conflict!” (2 Corinthians 4:4)

    Your next: Trinity invented by Theodosius Magnus in 390 A.D. is historically wrong.

    Not so, the word Trinity was indeed confirmed by the Church Father Tertullian, but in the large version of Gibbon’s ‘The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire’ the actual document is cited by the hand of Theodosius Magnus himself, presenting the Trinitarian doctrine formulated by Helen the Mother of Constantine Magnus in 324 A.D; thereby establishing the Catholic Church on the foundation of this Apostate Doctrine.

    Unfortunately your research is seriously ‘flawed’. You are basing your ideals on information from the established churches of Christendom which is described in the Bible as ‘Babylon the Great’ [The World Empire of False Religion]. (Revelation 17:1-6) Catholic, Protestant, non-conformist, all basing their faith on the false apostate doctrines of (1) The Trinity (2) Hell
    (3) Immortality of the soul. None of which are found in the Bible!

    And there came one of the seven angels, who had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, “Come hither; I will show unto thee the judgment upon the great whore who sitteth upon many waters,

    2with whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.”

    3So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness; and I saw a woman sitting upon a scarlet-coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, and having seven heads and ten horns.

    4And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and bedecked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication;

    5and upon her forehead was a name written: Mystery, Babylon the Great, Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the Earth.

    6And I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I wondered with great amazement.
    21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
    Regarding the Holy Spirit, again you are speaking without understanding; the Holy Spirit is indeed God’s active force by which he accomplishes all things including miracles.
    “For prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit.” (2 Peter 1:21) NMTCS NWT
    Also, when the holy spirit descended in the form of a dove during the baptism of Jesus, it was God’s voice from heaven which confirmed this anointing; not the holy spirit which in the form of a dove confirmed the purity of the one being baptized.
    So God can use his active force to cause men to speak or confirm an action or anything he might choose; it is however not a person.
    On the other hand, Deuteronomy 19:15 states: “…At the mouth of two witnesses or at the mouth of three witnesses the matter should stand good”

    (1) The Apostle Paul: “Keep this mental attitude which was also in Christ, that while he was existing in God’s form; never desired to be equal with God. (Philippians 2:6) NMTCS [First Witness]
    (2) Christ Jesus: “My Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28) [Second Witness]
    (3) Almighty God: “And I used to appear to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as God Almighty, but as respects my name Jehovah I did not make myself known to them.” (Exodus 6:3) [Third Witness]

    Well there we have it, three impeccable witnesses denying the equality of the apostate Trinity. The ‘Key’ throughout the whole of creation is not ‘equality’ but ‘balance.’ If all the workings in a watch were equal, when wound up it would go like clock-work toy; but it would never keep time.

    Your last comment regarding Jesus’ words that “you would die in your sins” is in the same context as his words to the Pharisees and the Scribes when he posed them the question: “How will you escape Gehenna? [The Second Death]”

    One cannot be in danger of the ‘second’ death until resurrected from the ‘first one!’ Hence the scripture that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous [no exceptions].

    Except for the heavenly immortal ‘little flock’ who receive immortality in the heavens if chosen as worthy, no other person right back as far as and including Adam will receive either condemnation or salvation before the end of the Sabbath Millennium of the Christ; otherwise the Sabbath Millennium would become invalid!

    There are a number of important things you need to know, the ‘Theme’ of the ‘Kingdom Seed’ (Genesis 3:15), God’s Legal Precedent and the ‘Sacred Secret of The Christ’ (Colossians 1:26; 4:3). These are all more important than a Trinity issue which in itself cannot provide salvation for anyone.

    Therefore the most important feature of all in the Holy Scriptures is the ‘Ransom’ through the provision of the kingdom ‘seed’, without which there is no salvation! (Genesis 22:18; Galatians 3;29) 21st Century King James Version (KJ21) NMTCS, NWT, AMP, KJV.

    I shall be pleased to discuss these further matters with you.

    Alexander

    • Dear Alexander,

      Thank you for your last comment. I am sadden that you repeated the same things of the last comment. I would not repeat myself but pause some questions centering Christ Jesus:

      1. How do you explain your three gods in the testimony of Monotheist belief(shema: God is One)?
      2. Why was Jesus properly worshiped by first Church?( + Charles Russell and his fellows til 1954) if he is angel?
      3. How do you move from Col 1:15 prōtotokos(firstborn) to prōtotoktistos(first created)?
      4. Why do you hold two contradicting proposition? a. Jesus(Proverb 8: Wisdom) was always with the God Father uncreated(according to your own reasoning), yet b. Jesus is first creature?

      In Christ Jesus,
      Prayson

  7. Christian greetings Prayson Daniel,

    As you say, first things first.

    (1) I agree that only Almighty God [Jehovah] the Creator give everlasting life.
    (2) Christ Jesus is the Liberating instrument which Almighty God has provided to allow mankind a second chance of obtaining everlasting life, he cannot provide this on his own. As the first-born of all creation he was given life by Almighty God who is a being [from everlasting to everlasting] and not a creature like the Word.
    (3) Therefore as Jesus himself states: “”Why callest thou Me good? There is none good but One, that is, God.” (Mark 10:18) KJ21” If he was Almighty God, he would never have made this statement! Also, if Jesus was Almighty God, since when did he create himself? Especially as we have already established that Almighty God is a being and not a creature.

    Also, his identification as Almighty God confirms without doubt that he is without equal; if he was not then he would not be Almighty. This is also confirmed by Jesus who states: “…I go unto the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I.”

    Almighty God (Exodus 6:3) and Mighty God (Isaiah 9:6) is God’s Word speaking, not me.
    The Triune God you believe in does not exist, therefore your belief in the Trinity is unfounded, it was invented by the Emperor Theodosius Magnus in 390 A.D.

    Origin of the Christian Trinity

    Of the momentous happenings of the age of Theodosius, which are recounted in detail in the original, none exceeded in importance the final triumph of the orthodox group among the Christians and the final effective destruction of paganism. “Let us,” said Theodosius in the first of fifteen severe edicts aimed primarily at the Arians, “believe the sole deity of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, under an equal majesty and a pious trinity.” Persons so believing might “assume the title of Catholic Christians; and as we judge that all others are extravagant madmen, we brand them with the infamous name of heretics….” Page 547

    (The Portable Gibbon edited by Dero A, Saunders

    THE DECLINE AND FALLOF THE ROMAN EMPIRE)

    Also your Triune God poses an even bigger problem, three in one?

    This also makes nonsense of the Trinitarian claim when Jesus said to his chosen followers “My Father is in me just as I am in him, and I am in you just as you are in me.” Referred to in the same context as the Doctrine of the Trinity, we would suddenly have not ‘three in one’ but ‘one hundred and forty-four thousand and three in one!’ Totally ridiculous! (Revelation 7:4-8; 14:1; 20:4 NWT KJV AMP)
    “I and my Father are one.” [in purpose not person] (John 10:30 KJV CEV) Greek context. “If you have seen me, you have seen the Father [also].” [in representation but not in person] (John 14:9 NWT) Greek context. In the same context, the Viceroy of India used the same statement to the Indian people when he said: “If you have seen me you have seen Her Majesty Queen Victoria [in representation but not in person].”
    Getting these things right is simply a matter of understanding the context of which ever language [Hebrew or Greek] the word or scripture is being quoted from. Those in the past just as now, who are desirous of putting their own man-made doctrines forward, rely on the fact that the majority of individuals have no knowledge or understanding of the etymological foundation from which these words are translated.

    So basically, you are in opposition to Jesus and God’s written Word.

    The three Gods mentioned in the Holy Scriptures are all separate and distinct.

    Almighty GOD the supreme Creator under whom his only-begotten Son became a master worker in this task. (Exodus 6:3; Proverbs 8:22, 30)

    The Mighty God the Prince of Peace and the only begotten god. (Isaiah 9:6; John 1:18)

    The god of this present world order (2 Corinthians 4:4)

    So again, to state that any of them are equal with the other puts you in opposition with God.

    You ask me, how did the first century Christians understand who Christ was? This is an easy one because due to the controversy at the tme with some people saying he was John the Baptist resurrected and others saying he was Elijah ctc., Jesus asked his Apostles: “Who do you say that I am?”

    Peter replied: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” So again, he was and is not God. Jesus replied: “Happy are you Simon son of Jonah, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but my Father who is in the heavens did.” (Mathew 16:16)

    You state that you hold to the traditinonal Christian belief that Jesus is Yaweh (Jehovah) and that he is a triune God [Three distinct person, one essence]. This is interesting because this is not actually a traditional Christian belief. Only a certain number of movements in Christendom believe in the Trinity due to the fact that there is not one ounce of evidence for this in scripture! The first century Christians never did!

    Also, if this apostate teaching was correct; then why does the nation of Israel reject it? Even Jesus by his own comments rejects it. So why do you persist in that which is simply a man-made invention which accomplishes nothing?

    For instance, are you aware that Jehovah [Hebrew] Yahweh [Aramaic] means ‘The Existing One’? No beginning and no end, therefore never created!

    The name Jesus however as instructed By Gabriel to Mary, means ‘Jehovah is Salvation.’ Because by means of this perfect human ransom [not a god-man as that would make him a hybrid and if as you state, he was God; as an immortal being he could never die. So the ransom would become invalid!] the liberation of mankind from Adamic death [death without a resurrection] would be accomplished.

    If they were equal, both would be beings and therefore never created! Yet the scriptures emphatically state that Jesus is the first-born of all creation. (Colossians 1:15; Revelation 3:14)

    You are reading the scriptures but you are not discerning the meaning of what they are actually saying. In Mark 10: 18 Jesus is emphasizing the fact that he is not Almighty God. If he was, he would never have made that statement.

    To reiterate:

    Exodus 6:3 brings to our attention the presence of Almighty God who’s name is Jehovah. [Almighty means – without equal]

    Isaiah brings to our attention that the Mighty God and Prince of Peace is of course Christ. [Mighty – means lesser God]

    2 Corinthians 4:4 brings to our attention that the god of this present world system is Satan. [ god of inrerior status]

    Three individuals separate and distinct frome each other and not one equal with the other.

    Incidentally, the Holy Spirit is not a persons but “God’s active force” by which all things are accompliahed. “…and God’s active force was moving to and froover the surface of the waters.” (Genesis 1:2)

    So now you are only left with two!

    You believe in the Triune or Trinitarian doctrine, three persons in one God, yet there is no scriptural evidence to back this up. If there is, let’s have it; also where do we find the word ‘Trinity’ in the Holy Scriptures?

    On the other hand, Deuteronomy 19:15 states: “…At the mouth of two witnesses or at the mouth of three witnesses the matter should stand good”

    (1) The Apostle Paul: “Keep this mental attitude which was also in Christ, that while he was existing in God’s form; never desired to be equal with God. (Philippians 2:6) NMTCS [First Witness]
    (2) Christ Jesus: “My Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28) [Second Witness]
    (3) Almighty God: “And I used to appear to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as God Almighty, but as respects my name Jehovah I did not make myself known to them.” (Exodus 6:3) [Third Witness]

    Well there we have it, three impeccable witnesses denyiny the equality of the apostate trinity. The ‘Key’ throughout the whole of creation is not ‘equality’ but ‘balance.’ If all the workings in a watch were equal, when wound up it would go like clock-work toy; but it would neve keep time.

    Your last comment regarding Jesus’ words that “you would die in your sins” is in the same context as his words to the Pharisees and the Scribes when he posed them the question: “How will you escape Gehenna? [The Second Death]”

    One cannot be in danger of the ‘second’ death until resurrected from the ‘first one!’ Hence the scripture that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous [no exceptions].

    Except for the heavenly immortal ‘little flock’ who receive immortality in the heavens if chosen as worthy, no other person right back as far as and including Adam will receive either condemnation or salvation before the end of the Sabbath Millennium of the Christ; otherwise the Sabbath Millennium would become invalid!

    Alexander

    • Christian greetings Alexander,

      Thank you for your last comment. But I was sadden that you did not engage in what I tried to present and also you attacked a strawman when it came to Triune God.

      Example: Places You Did Not Engage

      1. Mark 10:18

      Jesus did not deny He was God(Almighty) to the young ruler. He simply asked the rich ruler/man to examine the implications of what he was saying.

      The Question to ask yourself is, is Christ Jesus good? If yes, and only the God Almighty is good, then Christ Jesus is the God Almighty.

      2. Gibbôr And Shadday

      Might God (ēl gibbôr) and Almighty God(ēl shadday) do not convey the meaning of levels of superiority. If they were conveying the meaning of levels of power as you argued, that Jesus is a lesser god because he is mighty God, then your own reasoning would entail that Yahweh of Hosts is a lesser god too, since Isaiah 10:20:21(cf: Jeremiah 32:18) calls him might God.

      N.B: Jesus claiming that the Father is greater than him entails his submission to the Father, and not a lesser god. Example: A vice president Clinton can say, president Obama is greater than her. This does not mean Hilary Clinton is lesser human than Barak Obama. It entails submission, viz. it is the president with the last will.

      3. Firstborn

      You have not engaged in defending that firstborn means first created. As I argued that the term firstborn denotes the special position, with assigned privileges and responsibilities, and dearness in Father’s eyes. It is a title which is given(to Israel Exodus 4:22, to Ephraim Jeremiah 31:9, to Davidic Messiah Ps: 89:27) and can be lost(Esau sold it to Jacob Genesis 25:33) or given to a son who is not number natural first born(Hosah made his son Shimri first 1 Chronicles 26:10)

      If Paul in Col 1:15 wanted to say Jesus is the first created, then he would use prōtotoktistos. Prōtotokos does not mean Christ Jesus was created first.(Remember in your own reasoning of Proverb 8, you argued in the previous comments that Wisdom is an attribute that was always with God )

      Speaking Against Yourself

      1. Jesus is God, Jesus is not God

      In the same comment you speak against your own reasoning. You wrote there three Gods mentioned in the Holy Scriptures which are all separate and distinct: The Father, Jesus and Satan. Yet three paragraph later, you argued “he[Jesus] was and is not God.”

      So I am left to wonder, Is Jesus God or is he not.

      2. Attacking a Strawman

      You lined up arguments “supposedly for triunity” and destroyed them superbly. From Jesus is in the Father, and that Father in Him to Jesus and his Father been one. The problem is, you have misrepresentation of trinitarian position and attacked the misrepresentation.

      Failed In History of The Church

      You argued that Trinity was invented by the Emperor Theodosius Magnus in 390 A.D. This is simply Historically wrong. The word Trinity was introduced by the Church Father Tertullian (c. 155-230 AD) a century before First Council of Nicaea, which confirmed and sealed the concept of three persons in one God as was held by the Church.

      Example: In the writing of Justin Martyr(c.100-165 A.D) writings:

      Justin Martyr whom worship God alone (First Apology, ch 16) and knew only God alone is to be rendered worship(Ibid, ch 17) worshipped the Father, the Son and the Spirit “But both Him, and the Son (who came forth from Him and taught us these things, and the host of the other good angels who follow and are made like to Him), and the prophetic Spirit, we worship and adore.”(Ibid, ch 6)

      “We will prove that we worship him reasonably; for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God Himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness, saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things; but they are ignorant of the Mystery which lies therein” (First Apology 13:5-6 c.150 A.D).

      Circa 180 AD Irenaeus writes “[S]o that He indeed who made all things can alone, together with His Word, properly be termed God and Lord: but the things which have been made cannot have this term applied to them, neither should they justly assume that appellation which belongs to the Creator.”(Against Heresies, Book III, ch. 8, section 3.)

      If the Church Father Irenaeus is correct, then he is refuting your understanding of three gods, since the god(ruler) of the world, devil, can not properly be termed God and Lord. Christ Jesus in the other hand is properly termed God and Lord. As Irenaeus would say “… He[Jesus] is Himself in His own right, beyond all men who ever lived, God, and Lord, and King Eternal, and the Incarnate Word, proclaimed by all the prophets, the apostles, and by the Spirit Himself, may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth. Now, the scriptures would not have testified these things of Him, if, like others, He had been a mere man. (Irenaeus Against Heresies, chapter xix.2)

      Church History has enormous amount of writings of the Church Father that held the concept of three persons in one God, the concept which was then sealed at First Council of Nicaea.

      Please do read the Church History, the richness of the Church writings between 30-250 A.D are priceless.

      Poor Arguments Against Trinitarian Position

      1. a. There is No Word Trinity in The Bible

      Indeed that term trinity is not found in the Bible. Just because the term is not in the Bible does not mean it is concept is not true. Trinity is the summary of the Systematic Biblical teaching of three distinct persons in one and Only God.

      1. b. The Jews Have Rejected It

      Jesus because the Jews rejected does not mean it is false. Judaism rejects Jesus as Christ, thus it is logically understood why they would reject a Triune God. Remember Trinity came as a result of Church fathers reflection of divinity of Christ Jesus.

      1. c. The Holy Spirit Is Active Force

      You objected the personhood of Holy Spirit arguing that “the Holy Spirit is not a persons but “God’s active force” by which all things are accomplished”

      How can Jesus be understood when he said that the Holy Spirit is another(Greek allos) helper(John 14) and He testifies(John 15:26). Active forces can not speak(Acts 13:2) nor be grieved(Ephesians 4:30) nor will(1 Corinthian 12:11)

      My Prayer For You Alexander

      There are no arguments that I can give, nor Bible verses, nor Church History documents to help you see or convince you. For I am a fallen and dead creature as you are deeply depended in the life that Christ Jesus offered. I can not make you see, but in Christ Jesus our Lord and God, I pray that the Holy Spirit to touch your spiritual eyes to see the Glory and Majesty of Christ Jesus, to the Glory of his Father and God, for this is not a physical blindness but spiritual one.

      May the grace of our Sovereign God be with you.

      Prayson

      P.S: I would ask you to read and reread before you answer. As Paul would say to Timothy, so I pray and humbly ask you “Think over what I say, for the Lord will give you understanding in everything”.

  8. Christian greetings Prayson Daniel,

    I am actually trying to work out what it is you are trying to say, one minute you are saying that Jesus is equal with Almighty God and the next minute you are denying this.

    You are spending a lot of time on minor details when the main issue of the ‘Ransom’ which is the ‘Key’ to everlasting life, you are completely by-passing.

    Without the complete and accurate understanding of this, all your other issues mean nothing. With regard to Almighty God, Exodus 6:3 confirms in God’s own words “And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob by the name of God Almighty, but by My name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.” KJ21

    His identification as Almighty God confirms without doubt that he is without equal.

    Now are you in agreement with this or in opposition to Jesus?

    When Jesus stated: “And Jesus said unto him, “Why callest thou Me good? None is good save One, that is, God.” He was actually confirming this.

    I agree that Jesus did not create Almighty God, it is your own phraseology that has suggested this in the fact of your words that by him [Jesus] all things were created. You evidently mean what you say, but you are not saying what you mean. I find this with many people today, English is an exact language but not many know how to use it.

    Now if you are in agreement with the following:

    There are three Gods mentioned in the Holy Scriptures and all three are separate and distinct.

    Almighty GOD the supreme Creator under whom his only-begotten Son became a master worker in this task. (Exodus 6:3; Proverbs 8:22, 30)

    The Mighty God the Prince of Peace and the only begotten god. (Isaiah 9:6; John 1:18)

    The god of this present world order (2 Corinthians 4:4)

    Then what is the issue which you are trying to make?

    Because it seems to me that here we are engaged in an issue of which we are both in agreement.

    On the other hand, remember I asked:

    “Are you aware that there are three basic foundation points which need addressing in order to acquire an accurate understanding of God’s Will and Purpose?

    (1) What is the Theme running thorugh the Bible from Genesis to Revelation?
    (2) What is the Formula by which we can confirm the accuracy of prophecy?
    (3) What is the Legal Precedent which God has been establishing over the last six thousand years?”

    You did not reply to this.

    Your interesting comment: “I pray that you may see Christ Jesus as He is, your eternity hangs on the truth of who the Son of God is.”

    Actually it doesn’t, everlasting life on this earth as a perfect human under paradisaic conditions [Salvation]; is already on offer to all mankind due to the provision of the Liberator Christ Jesus who by his execution has ransomed us from Adamic death [death without a resurrection] and opened the ‘Way’ to the resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous [no exceptions] (Acts 24:15) during the Sabbath Millennium of The Christ. (Matthew 25:31-46; Revelation 20:1-15).

    Consider the comment: “And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him;” (Matthew 12:32) KJ21

    This is because at the moment all are imperfect and God will not judge an imperfect individual by his own perfect law. Therefore he has through his loving kindness, provided a ‘second chance’ by way of the resurrection for all mankind during the Sabbath Millennium [Judgement Period] of The Christ (Revelation 20:6); thereby providing an opportunity for those who stand against Satan when he is released from his thousand years incarceration to avoid the ‘second death’ (Revelation 21:8) and instead receive salvation as percfect humans on a paradisaic earth.

    Alexander

    • Christian greetings Alexander,

      1. First Things First

      It is the Ransom which is the Key to everlasting life which I believe you are completely by-passing by asserting that Christ Jesus is a creature. As I argued in Argument I.

      1. Only God(Yahweh/Lord) and God(Yahweh/Lord) alone gives everlasting life.
      2. Christ Jesus gives everlasting life.
      3. Therefore Christ Jesus is God(Yahweh/Lord)

      These are not minor issues because If you do not believe who Christ Jesus is, you would die in your sins(John 8:24) and that I pray and hope as a brother in Christ Jesus, would not be the case.

      If Christ Jesus is a creature(a created angel) then he can not give everlasting life. That is the key reason why I argued that Christ Jesus is not a created being, a position you hold.

      Almighty God and Mighty God terms are not levels of power. You holding that the Father is Almighty God while Christ Jesus is simply Mighty God thus lesser god is false because Yahweh is the Might God (ēl gibber, Isaiah 10:20-21) and Almighty God(ēl shadday). I was careful to write God the Father inside brackets after “Almighty God” for your sake, since when I say Almighty God, you think of God the Father only.

      2. What I Believe:

      I hold to the Tradition Christian Belief that Yahweh is a triune God(Three distinct persons, one essence). Therefore I do not hold, nor believe in tritheism(three gods)( 2 Corinthians 4:4. The god of this present world order is a created angel thus not Yahweh)

      Please do reread my previous comment, mostly #4, for I answered Mark 10:18

      3. What I am asking from you:

      I would argue you my brother to reexamine your belief of Christ Jesus been an angel and know the cost, if found wrong. Weigh the cost, because if Christ Jesus is Yahweh/NT=Lord, as the first Christians believed, worshiped Him and prayed to, and you have spent your life denying him, the Son of God as Yahweh by lowering him to a creature, dethroning him as your Yahweh(Lord God), then you do not have the Father(IF you are wrong)

      I pray that you would re-examine your Bible with the Holy Spirit guard. Read also the History of the first Christians(between 30-200 A.D), how did they understand who Christ Jesus was(is), and If God will, He will reveal himself to you for the joy and pleasure of his Glory.

      In Christ Jesus,

      Prayson

      I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.” So they said to him, “Who are you?” Jesus said to them, “Just what I have been telling you from the beginning. I have much to say about you and much to judge, but he who sent me is true, and I declare to the world what I have heard from him.”(John 8:24-26 ESV)

      BTW: I did not reply to your 3 questions because they would divert from the topic at hand.

  9. Christian greetings Prayson Daniel,

    I am actually answering your questions, but you seem to be unable to discern what I am saying.

    Your comment: “This lead to a good position. God said let US make man in OUR Image.Therefore Jesus made ALL THINGS. The US includes The Father and His Son (Hebrew 1) because God ALONE created the heaven and the earth (Nehemiah) and man is made only in the image of God, not of God and archangel, No Image of God (Elohim, plural in unity).”

    You are clutching at straws here my friend, you are reading the scriptures yet devising your own opinions. To be made in the image of Almighty God is to possess his own character image. I have already detailed this and therefore shown that this character image is possed by the Woed, the cherubim and seraphim and all the angels; plus mankind itself. All othe living creation does not possess this quality.

    Your comment: “You wrote: “my comment is straight quote from the NWT and NMTCS” And so it is. There is no OTHER (Greek word,άλλος allos) the truth that NWT knows and thus add [] with no justification.”

    Jesus did not make all things, for instance he did not create Almighty God! Therfore the New Millennium Translation of Corrected Scripture corrects the projected translation in this relevent scripture due to the fact that in Koine Greek as in many other languages the thought is carried in context with the subject. He did not create Almighty God nor himself, therefore he only created all [other] things.

    Your comment: “Firstborn is used as a title David was called firstborn (Ps 89:26-27), and also Jeremiah 31:9 Ephraim is God’s firstborn. Therefore it can not mean first created.”

    No one is saying this, the scripture of which I used states that he [the Word] was the ‘firstborn of all creation’, he was also the beginning of the creation by Almighty God. David, Ephraim and Isaac along with thousands of others were all firstborn of their own families but only the Word was the firstborn of all creation. Therefore in his particular case, he was both the firstborn and the first created as he was the only one ever to be fashioned personally by the hand of Almighty God. He is the firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and the firstborn from the dead. (Colossians 1:18) Therefore as I mentioned last time, the Word has been begotten twice!

    Your quotes of Origin and Irenaeus are seriously flawed!

    There are three God mentioned in the Holy Scriptures and all three are separate and distinct.

    Almighty GOD the supreme Creator under whom his only-begottenson became a master worker in this task. (Exodus 6:3; Proverbs 8:22, 30)

    The Mighty God the Prince of Peace and the only begotten god. (Isaiah 9:6; John 1:18)

    The god of this present world order (2 Corinthians 4:4)

    Incidentally Origin and Irenaeus failed to take into consideration the inflections in the Koine Greek where John 1:1 is concerned. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with GOD and a God was the Word.” The New Millennium Translation of corrected scripture renders it as: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Almighty GOD while the Word was a Mighty God.”

    This is completely in harmony with the firt two previous scriptures which I have just quoted (Exodus 6:3; Isaiah 9:6) Also, Almighty GOD is distinguished by the capital koine Greek Theta, while the Mighty God is distinguished by the small Koine Greek Theta.

    If Origin and Irenaeus had checked this correctly, they would never have made that mistake!

    If they had read Jesus’ words when he was addressed as “Good master,” they would never have made this mistake.

    “Why do you call me good? Only one is good, the heavenly one God!”

    So he was not Almighty God, never has been and never will be! His words, not mine. So to say that he is God in any way shape or form is to call Jesus a liar!

    Regarding your untouched objections, I have alredy covered your first on Firstboen.

    “You said Wisdom is the attribute of God, then saying Proverb 8, God created wisdom will mean that God did not have has this attribute which is absurd.”

    Correct, Wisdom is an attribute along with Justice, Love and Power. An attrbute is something which is expressed, it is not created. It is these four attributes which form the character of Almighty God and in which we are also created.

    I notice in the following, you sre using titles such as Lord, Adonai etc. in reference to Jesus while at the same time inferring that there is some connection with Almighty God.

    This is of course is totally incorrect.

    “You said Jesus was not God, never has been and never will be! Thomas says he is “the Lord of me and God of me” just like the way David called Yahweh in Psalm 35:23”

    Quite correct, but now you need to examine exactly what you have quoted. Notice Thomas said that he was the Lord and God of him. This is because on his raising up from the dead, he was clothes with immortality and is described in John 1:18 as “…the only-begotten god…”

    When Thomas in realizing that it was indeed the risen Lord he exclaimed: “My Lord and my God.” Not “My Lord Almighty God.” because although put to death as a perfect man in the same capacity as Adam, he had now had not a resurrection [a re-standing of one’s former self before death] but a resurgence from human mortality to a powerful immortal spirit creature. In other words, Almighty God had re-created him as The mighty God, the second most powerful thing in existence. Almighty God in his wisdom never creates anything equal or more powerful than himself, in this way he never creates anything over which he does not possess complete control.

    “ho kurios mou kai ho theos mou”(John 20:23)
    “ ho theos mou kai ho kurios mou” (Psalm 35:23 Septuagint LXX cf v24)

    This is correct, however you will also notice that ‘theos’ in each case contains a small theta denoting a ‘lesser’ god and not Almighty God!

    The humility of Christ Jesus is such that even while he was existing in God’s form [Spirit] as the Word, “he gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.” (Philippians 2:6 NWT ED)

    This is why he stated in John 14:28 “…`I go unto the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I.” (KJ21 ED NWT AMP ASV)

    Luke 18:19 “Why callest thou Me good? None is good save One, that is, God.” KJ21

    So again I am afraid that your objections fall flat in the face of scripture.

    I have been engaged in intensive study and researh into the Holy Scriptures now for just over fifty years, during which time I have also been teaching.

    For instance, are you aware that there are three basic foudation points which need addressing in order to acquire an accurate understanding of God’s Will and Purpose?

    (1) What is the Theme running thorugh the Bible from Genesis to revelation?
    (2) What is the Formula by which we can confirm the accuracy of prophecy?
    (3) What is the Legal Precedent which God has been establishing over the last six thousand years?

    Some of my work and articles can be reviewed at http://www.squirespublishing.co.uk

    Alexander

    • Christian greetings Alexander,

      Thank you for engaging in the last comment.

      1. Jesus Did Not Create Almighty God

      You justified the NWT and NMTCS addition of “allos” OTHER with the instance that Jesus did not created Almighty God(God the Father). This misses the point because only creatures are created/made and God the Father is not a creature. Two John records that

      “He[Logos] was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.”(John 1:2-3 ESV)

      Meaning everything that was of made category(angels, humans, e.t.c) was made through him and I would add for him(Col 1:16). Nothing that was of made category, was made without him. God the Father is not on a made category, for he is not a creature.

      Logos himself is not one of the creation because NOTHING THAT WAS MADE WAS MADE WITH HIM. Therefore Logos can not be a creature(made).

      2. Missing the Point on Firstborn

      You missed my point and made an error when you argued “David, Ephraim and Isaac along with thousands of others were all firstborn of their own families but only the Word was the firstborn of all creation.”

      Ephraim, Isaac and David firstborn term denotes the special position, with assigned privileges and responsibilities, and dearness in Father’s eyes. Ephraim and David had brothers older than them.

      3. Early Church Fathers On Jesus’

      You argued that the Greek speaking, early Church Fathers got it wrong in believing Jesus to be God. Well, I would say it is not just Origin and Irenaeus, but Ignatius (c. 30-117 AD), Polycarp (c. 70-155 AD), Justin Martyr (c. 100–165 AD), Clement of Alexandria (c. 150–215 AD), and Tertullian (c. 155-230 AD). It was not until Arius of Alexandria(c. 250-336 AD) who argued Jesus was a created being, did your position of Jesus came to life.

      4. Why do you call me Good(Mark 10:18)

      Jesus did not deny He was God to the young ruler. He simply asked the rich ruler/man to examine the implications of what he was saying.

      The Question to ask yourself is, is Christ Jesus good? If yes, and only the God is good, then Christ Jesus is the God.

      5. Your Own Reasoning Denies Jesus(Proverb 8’s Wisdom) as a Creature

      You argued “ Wisdom is an attribute along with Justice, Love and Power. An attrbute is something which is expressed, it is not created. It is these four attributes which form the character of Almighty God”

      1. If All God’s attributes are not created.
      2. Wisdom is God’s attribute.
      3. Therefore Wisdom is not created.

      In your own reasoning Jesus, Logos, the Word of God, and the Wisdom of God could not have a beginning because it has always be with God(Father).

      6. Almighty and Mighty God. Your objection of Psalm 35:23 and John 20:23)

      First: Might God (ēl gibbôr) and Almighty God(ēl shadday) do not convey the meaning of levels of superiority. They are two different Hebrew words. Second, Yahweh is called Might God in just one chapter of after Isaiah 9:6, viz. 10:20-21 cf Jeremiah 32:18 “ἰσχυρός = ēl gibbôr

      Moreover your argument that John 20:23 and Psalms 35:23 denotes a lesser God because it contains a small theta falls because:

      1. Psalms 25:23 is directed to Yahweh.
      2. If your argument is true, then God the Father is a lesser God because John 20:17 Jesus called him “ego theos kai sy theos” my God and your God.

      7. Looking At Philippians 2:6

      Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.(Philippians 2:5-7 ESV)

      Keep this mental attitude in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men.(Philippians 2:5-7 NTW)

      What you left out is that Christ Jesus was in form of GOD, and lower himself in taking on flesh, thus the Father is greater than him(John 14:28).

      Christ Jesus was in form of God makes sense since: “All I[Jesus] have is yours[Fathers] and all you have is mine” It is one things for all that Jesus has to be the Fathers and quite another claiming that all the Father has is his if Jesus was not in form of God.

      Conclusion: Prayer To My Brother

      Christ Jesus is our Shepherd(John 10:16 cf Psalm 23), My God and your God, my Lord and your Lord, to whom our knees will bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and our tongue confess that the Son of God is Adonai(Isaiah 45:23), to the glory, pleasure and joy of His God and Father, who command us to honor and worship his Son as we do to Him.

      I pray that you may see Christ Jesus as He is, your eternity hangs on the truth of who the Son of God is. I, my brother in Christ, in fellowship with the First Christians Church, whom you say you are part of, testifies that He is Our Lord and our God, to the glory of His Father.

      Prayson

  10. Christian greetings Prayson,

    You are asking for comments regarding ‘First-born’ and ‘Wisdom’ well you have no doubt already observed that all my comments are based on accurate scripture with no personal opinion. The point of this is simply that anyone who has a problem with certain comments, then they had better take these up with Almighty God; because he put them there

    I have actually already covered that which you ask but unfortunately, you seem to have misunderstood certain of my comments. I did in fact mention that it is most interesting that the Word which later taking on human for and then at the end of his earthly task had a resurgence from the dead and was raised up as an immortal spirit creature.

    This in fact means that the Word has been ‘begotten’ [born ]twice!

    He is therefore not only the First-born of all creation (Colossians 1:15) but he is also the First-born of the dead (Colossians 1:18). Now this it the Bible speaking, I am merely reiterating its truth.

    Now ‘Wisdom’ as I also mentioned, is one of the four character attributes of Almighty God which he also built into the Word and Man, thereby creating us in his own character image.

    So really, the fact that the word ‘image’ is used and not actuality; proves that none of us are God!

    Proverbs 8:22-31 is really self-explanatory; the Word is merely giving an account of how he was created personally by Almighty God as the beginning of his way. He then goes on to relate his account of how he came to be beside his Father as a master worker, creating all other things as later stated in Colossians 1;15, 16.

    This is why he is referred to as the ‘only-begotten’ son of God, due to the fact that he is the only one in the whole of creation to be personally fashioned by the grand Creator himself.

    You also state that: “no other creatures bear the image of God,”

    Well of course this statement is totally incorrect, speaking to the Word he says: “Let us make man in our image” (Genesis 1:26) Now like I said, if you have a problem with this statement; you had better take it up with God because he stated it!

    The apostle Paul states: “For to which of the ANGELS did he ever say, “Thou art my Son, Today I have begotten thee?” (Hebrews 1:5 ED KJV KJ21 AMP)

    You state: “No angel did God said that! Not even one”

    Correct, that is the whole point; it is only to the Word his only begotten Son was this ever said.

    • You state: “And notice that in Hebrew 1:8-9 God (the Father) calls his Son, God. “ Your throne, O God..” ”

    Correct, and this is confirmed by the ancient rendering of ‘only begotten god’ in John 1:18; proving once more the harmony of the scriptures. Notice the lettering ‘god’ for a lesser god and not GOD for Almighty God.

    • Your next: “Christians are also sons of God, but we are sons of God by adoptions while Jesus is the Only unique Son of God.”
    Correct, but again this adoption applies only to the heavenly ‘little flock’ as confirmed by the Apostle Paul who was one of them.

    • Your next: “You wrote Jesus creation of all OTHER things? No, Jesus created ALL THINGS. Adding OTHER due to a presupposition of him being created would not work there.”
    Not so, my comment is straight quote from the NWT and NMTCS. The word ‘other’ is indeed in [] because if we say that Jesus in his capacity of the Word created ‘all’ things, then we are therefore including his creation of Almighty God!

    Your next: “You are overlooking Christ natures again saying that “he would still be hanging alive on the tree”. Jesus was fully man, thus as a fully man dies.”

    Not so, Jesus was a perfect man and nothing else, this was the exact requirement for the ransom paid; therefore he died!

    However, for those who claim that he was also Almighty God; thye he would also have still been immortal and therefore indestructable!

    Your next: “Jesus is doing exactly what Lucifer did. It is this reason why the Jews killed him. Jesus made himself equal to God (John 5:18)”
    Sorry, you have misread the substance of this scripture. Because Jesus referred to Almighty God as his Father, the Jews indignantly ‘claimed’ that he was making himself equal to God.

    Your next: “Jesus say we ought to honor him as we honor the Father (John 5:23), Jesus claim have authority to give life as the Father give life, we are to believe in Him as we believe the Father.”

    Correct, this is done in the same manner as the Viceroy of India was honoured in the same way as Queen Vicoria; but he was not the Queen and Jesus was not Almighty God.

    Your comment: “I wrote an article on this, The Dangerous Logic of Jehovah’s Witness Logic, arguing that Jesus would be worse that Lucifer if he was an angel.”
    Not really, Lucifer was covetous of the Creator’s position but as he could not win by strength, he used a moral issue to bring about the situation we find ourselves in today.

    Jesu [The Word] on the other hand, had no such desire and proved this by his obedience as far as execution.

    One last point, while on earth Jesus was addressed as “Good Master,” to which he replied: “Why do you call me good? Only one is good, the heavenly one God!”

    So he was not God, never has been and never will be! His words, not mine.

    Alexander

    • Hej Alexander,

      Thank you so much for the tune of comment and the kindness it is fill with.

      It of my first importance to straighten a misunderstanding. When I say there no other creature made in the image of God I meant other than man(human, we were talking about humanity of Jesus)

      And when I use Almighty God, I do not mean only God the Father. Therefore I do not mean Jesus is claiming to be God the Father. But he is claiming to be the Son of God, making himself equal with God.(To whom his disciple prayed to, sing hymns to and worship as God, their Lord and their God, John 20:28). When I say Almighty God(ēl shadday) please do understand as the Only True God to whom I believe is in three distinct persons in unity.

      This lead to a good position. God said let US make man in OUR Image. Therefore Jesus made ALL THINGS. The US includes The Father and His Son(Hebrew 1) because God ALONE created the heaven and the earth(Nehemiah) and man is made only in the image of God, not of God and archangel, No Image of God(Elohim, plural in unity).

      You wrote: “my comment is straight quote from the NWT and NMTCS” And so it is. There is no OTHER(Greek word,άλλος allos) the truth that NWT knows and thus add [] with no justification.

      For the use of Only Begotten Son read Hebrew 11:17, Isaac is the Only begotten of Abraham!(This position refute your understanding of Only begotten). And again the Church father clarified what it means:

      Origin writings of c. 200 A.D:

      “And God was the Word, and this was in the beginning with God.’ Let him, then, who assigns a beginning to the Word or Wisdom of God, take care that he be not guilty of impiety against the unbegotten Father Himself, seeing he denies that He had always been a Father, and had generated the Word”(Origin. De Principiis, Book 1, Ch 2, Section 3)

      and Irenaeus writings of A.D 185

      “ and the Word was God, ´ of course, for that which is begotten of God is God” (Irenaeus. Against Heresies, Book 1, Ch 8)

      My untouched Objections

      You did not answer the objections I rose in the last two comments to which I hoped you would engaged.

      1. Firstborn is used as a title David was called firstborn(Ps 89:26-27), and also Jeremiah 31:9 Ephraim is God’s firstborn. Therefore it can not mean first created.

      2. You said Wisdom is the attribute of God, then saying Proverb 8, God created wisdom will mean that God did not have has this attribute which is absurd.

      You did not refute the arguments above and the 5 argument I gave.

      Will on earth and in heaven the disciple and follow call him Lord(kyrios) the title OT Septuagint(Greek) for Yahweh.

      Example Elizabeth called the unborn child Lord! 🙂 And Paul and Jesus himself used Adonai(Lord) to identify Christ(Psa 110:1).

      Paul clearly thinks Yahweh(Lord) of Isaiah 45:23 is Christ Jesus Philippians 2:9-11

      You said Jesus was not God, never has been and never will be! Thomas says he is “the Lord of me and God of me” just like the way David called Yahweh in Psalm 35:23

      “ho kurios mou kai ho theos mou”(John 20:23)
      “ ho theos mou kai ho kurios mou” (Psalm 35:23 Septuagint LXX cf v24)

      Not my words 🙂

      I hope you will engage to what my objections and arguments. May our Lord and Savior shine upon you.

      In Christ Jesus,
      Prayson

  11. Jesus, while in the days of his flesh (Hebrews 5:7), was indeed a human being, having a sinless glory a little lower than the angels. (Hebrews 2:9) He did not have, while the days of his flesh, two different levels of sentiency, one higher than the angels, which he would have if he, while in the days of his flesh, was also “fully God”, as trinitarians and some others would define that term. The Bible never present any idea that Jesus had two levels of sentiency at one time, as some, in effect, would express in the alleged hypostatic union and/or “dual natures” of Jesus theories. The Bible never presents such an idea. However, Jesus sacrificed his sinless body of flesh to redeem, purchase us, from the condemnation of sin through Adam. (Romans 5:12-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21,22; 1 Timothy 2:5,6; Hebrews 2:9; 10:5,10) Jesus, since the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Exodus 3:14,15), He who sent Jesus into the world (Acts 3:13-26), has exalted Jesus above the angels, excluding the glory that only belongs to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Isaiah 42:8; Acts 2:33; 5:31; Philippians 2:9: 1 Corinthians 15:24-27; Ephesians 1:20-23), Jesus is no longer in the days of his flesh (Hebrews 5:7); he is no longer with a sentiency that is a little lower than then angels (Hebrews 2:9), but he is now with a sentiency above the angels.

    The Greek word translated “Godhead” in many translations at Colossians 2:9 is Theotes. The Bauer, Arndt and Gingrich lexicon [BAGD], on page 359, defines the Greek word theotes as: “deity, divinity, used as abstract noun for theos…the fullness of a deity Col.2:9″. [abstract noun, a quality or attribute].

    Being an abstract noun for theos, we thus fall back to the root, THEOS, and its usages as well as the Hebraic background of EL and ELOHIM, which are translated by the Greek THEOS.

    If we remember that the Hebrew words EL and ELOHIM have the basic meaning of “strength, power, might”*, we can see what Paul is saying here. The fullness [abundance] of deity [strength, power, might] dwells in him bodily [his heavenly spirit body, not his body of flesh]. Seeing the word THEOTES as based on Hebrew usage of EL and ELOHIM, in the sense of power and authority, allows us to understand that Paul is saying that all this power and authority dwells in Jesus bodily. All the power and authority spoken of, however, is given to Jesus by the Almighty Yahweh. This agrees with Paul elsewhere says: “Therefore God also highly exalted him, and gave to him the name which is above every name.” (Philippians 2:9 — Thus Jesus is not God who exalted him.) “For, ‘He put all things in subjection under his feet.’ But when he says, ‘All things are put in subjection,’ it is evident that he is excepted who subjected all things to him.” (1 Corinthians 15:27) “The God of our Lord Jesus Christ.. raised him from the dead, and made him to sit at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule, and authority, and power, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come. He put all things in subjection under his feet, and gave him to be head over all things to the assembly, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.” (Ephesians 1:17,20-23) “He is the head of the body, the assembly, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.” (Colossians 1:18) Peter agrees with this: “Jesus Christ, who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, angels and authorities and powers being made subject to him.” — 1 Peter 3:21,22.

    Having now in his celestial body, spiritual body, a glory that is only exceeded by the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, he now possesses bodily all the abundance, plenitude (Greek transliterated, pleroma) of might (Greek transliterated, theotes) that he needs to perform the work that God has given to him to do. — Colossians 2:9,10.

    The plenitude of godship — ruling might — does dwell permanently in the mighty spirit body of Jesus. It is not just an authority that is given to him, but his very being contains all the power needed to carry out the works of the One who sent him, thus “it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,” (Colossians 1:19, NAS) and so that he “is the head of all principality and power.” (Colossians 2:10) This might — godhead, godship — is given to Jesus by the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Jesus. — Psalm 45:7; Matthew 28:18; Acts 3:13; Hebrews 1:2,6,9; Philippians 2:9; Colossians 2:10; Psalm 2:7,8; 110:1,2; Isaiah 9:6,7; Luke 1:32; Jeremiah 23:5; Daniel 7:13,14.

    Regarding the context, we do not find that “God” — the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is presented as three person, nor do we find any suggestion that Jesus is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Indeed, we find the very opposite. Is the word THEOS in Colossians 1:3,6,10,14,27; 2:12; 3:1 referring to one person, or three persons? Does not this one person who is identified as “God” exalt the the one spoken of Colossians 2:9 with the power that is spoken of in Colossians 2:10?

    Most trinitarians will agree that in these verses (Colossians 1:3,6,10,14,27; 2:12; 3:1), Paul uses the word THEOS of only of one person, not more than one person. What they usually will do, however, is call upon the spirit of human imagination so as assume that “God” means only the alleged “first” person of God, and that our Lord Jesus Christ means the alleged second person of God. Of course, then they will use the spirit of human imagination in order to suppose that, in Acts 2:36, it is the first person of their alleged triune God who made the second person of the alleged triune God both Lord and Christ. Some go on to confuse matters even more by claiming that the word Lord, when applied to Jesus, means Yahweh (Jehovah) of the Old Testament, although as yet I have not seen any explanation as to how Yahweh made Jesus Yahweh. The point is that the trinitarian has to continuously call upon the spirit of human imagination in order keep bringing forth one thing after another to add to the scriptures and to read into the scriptures in order to sustain the added-on trinitarian dogma.

    Of course, now that the only Most High — the unipersonal God and Father of Jesus (Ephesians 1:3) — has exalted Jesus (Acts 5:31; Ephesians ; Philippians 2:9; Ephesians 1:20-22), he has been made “the head of all principality and power” (Colossians 2:10), and he is no longer in the days of his flesh (Hebrews 5:7), and having sacrifice his fleshly existence (Luke 22:19; John 6:51; Hebrews 10:10), he is no longer a little lower than the angels (Hebrews 2:9), but is now exalted above the angels. (1 Peter 1:22). As such, in the spiritual body that he now has (1 Corinthians 15:44,45; 1 Peter 3:18), God has given to him all the fulness (abundance, the full amount needed) of deity (mightiness, powerfulness) that is needed for him to be “head of all principality and power” as has been given to him by the only Most High. Jesus, however, is and always will be excluded from being that which only belongs to God Himself. — 1 Corinthians 15:27.

    Much, much more could be said to support the above, and I have presented much more on my websites. Nevertheless, after Satan is absyssed, those who cannot see the truth on this matter at the present time, will be able to see and understand, all to the glory of Jesus and his God. — Revelation 20:3.

    • Hej Reslight,

      Thank you for your comment.

      You wrote: “He did not have, while the days of his flesh, two different levels of sentiency”

      I would say indeed this is exactly what he had:

      He could turn stone into bread yet he was hungry
      He was the living water yet was thirsty
      He knew Everything yet did not know the End-time that belong only to the Father.
      He gave life yet allow his to be taken
      He was in his thirties yet said before Abraham was, I AM(of Exodus 3:14-16)

      And on examples goes.

      On EL and ELOHIM(Plural in Unity)

      Reslight, theotetos(Deity) and theiot(Divinity) have different meaning. You trying to reduce the later to the former would not work. The difference is that of essence and attributes/quality.

      Col 2:9 does not use theiotetos to which if it did, you would be justified in what you tried to argued(attributes of God) but tes theotetos(the essence of God).

      Changing theotetos to mean theiototes is escaping the truth of who Christ Jesus is, his true nature thus robing is identity as God(Our Lord, and Our God, John 20:28).

      1. theiotetos: divinity or has the quality of the divine; that which shows God to be God, and gives Him the right to worship.(The emphasis is on his attributes.)
      2. theotetos: one who occupies the divine office and possesses all divine power.(The emphasis is on his nature.) – NIDNTT, Vol. 2, page 86 and TDNT, Vol. III page 119 and 123

      Let me know what you think 🙂

      In Christ Jesus

      Prayson

  12. Greetings,

    Thank you for your reply, you mention the point where the followers of the Way were first called Christians. This is quite correct, although this referred only to the ‘anointed’ followers of the Way as Christian means ‘anointed-one’. The rest who were not of the ‘anointed’ [little flock] would remain as followers of the Way.

    Your next point, as the ‘first-born’ of all creation; this establishes the Word as a spirit creature and not Almighty God. God did not create himself. Also, the fact tha he was [like Adam] created in the ‘image’ of God; as the Word is spirit and Adam was human; both were therefore created in the ‘character’ image of God which is Justice [Lion], Power [Bull], Love [Man], Wisdom [Eagle], (Revelation 4:7).

    Another most interesting piece of evidence which has recently come to light, the apostle Paul states: “For to which of the ANGELS did he ever say, “Thou art my Son, Today I have begotten thee?” (Hebrews 1:5 ED KJV KJ21 AMP)
    This is cross-referenced with Psalm 2:7 and seems to infer that the created Word only became the ‘Son of God’ at his baptism and anointing.
    However, to put this in its correct perspective; the Word was always a ‘son of God’. Just as all of the heavenly creatures are sons of God. (Job 38:7 KJV KJ21 ASV AMP)

    The difference is that the Word has been ‘begotten’ twice! Although this may sound hard to believe, it is however in complete harmony with the pattern and parallel here shown:
    TYPE ANTITYPE

    Word Word

    Mortal Spirit Creature Immortal
    Spirit Creature

    First-born of all creation First-born of the dead
    (Colossians 1:15) (Colossians 1:18)

    Your comment: “Though I believe you have overlooked the Nature of Christ Jesus namely Fully man and fully God”

    Not so, many have put out the idea that Jesus was a God-man, however this would make him a hybrid like the angels who forsook their natural dewlling place before the Genesis Flood; which is expressly against God’s creative law. This would also invalidate his ransom sacrifice, a perfect man for a perfect man; not a god-man.

    This is in context with Colossians 1:15, 16 which states that as the ‘image’ of the invisible God and the first-born of all creation, he cannot possibly be God who is a ‘being’ and therefore not a creature!

    His creating of all other things as confirmed in Proverbs 8:22-31 is in the capacity as a master worker under the direction of his Father Almighty God.

    One specific point most people seem to over-look, is that if Jesus was Almighty God incarnate, as Almighty God is immoertal and therefore indestructable; he would still be hanging alive on the tree of his execution!

    A further point:
    Lucifer had said, “I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; . . . I will be like the Most High.” Isaiah 14:13, 14. But Christ, “being in the form of God, counted it not a thing to be grasped to be on an equality with God, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men.” Phil. 2:6, 7, R. V., margin.

    Therefore never being equal with Almighty God, nor even desiring this; he can never be that one!

    In the name of Yeshua ha Notzri Messiah Liberatus,

    Pathfinder in truth and hope.

    Alexander Winslow

    • Hej Alexander,

      Super thank you for the tune of gentleness in your the above comment.

      I was hoping you would engaged in what I wrote about Firstborn and Wisdom(Pro 8:22-31), pointing were I am wrong in my reasoning. I hope you would in the next comment.

      You argued that Jesus being an image(eikōn) of invisible God entails creation. This argument fails because no other creatures bear the image of God, not even angels.Genesis 1:26-27 makes it clear that God has his own image, to which he created man in that likeness.

      Hebrew 1:5 is a rhetoric question to a society that worshiped angels. The author of Hebrew is showing the supremacy of Christ Jesus. Greater than angel(they worshiped Him),and greater than Moses. The answer to that question is simple, No angel did God said that! Not even one 🙂

      And notice that in Hebrew 1:8-9 God(the Father) calls his Son, God. “ Your throne, O God..”

      Sons of God:

      Christians are also sons of God, but we are sons of God by adoptions while Jesus is the Only unique Son of God.

      All “Other” Things?

      You wrote Jesus creation of all OTHER things? No, Jesus created ALL THINGS. Adding OTHER due to a presupposition of him being created would not work there.

      You overlooking Christ natures again saying that “he would still be hanging alive on the tree”. Jesus was fully man, thus as a fully man dies.

      Jesus and Lucifer:

      Jesus is doing exactly what Lucifer did. It is this reason why the Jews killed him. Jesus made himself equal to God(John 5:18)

      Example: Jesus say we ought to honor him as we honor the Father(John 5:23), Jesus claim have authority to give life as the Father give life, we are to believe in Him as we believe the Father.

      I wrote an article on this, The Dangerous Logic of Jehovah’s Witness Logic, arguing that Jesus would be worse that Lucifer if he was an angel.

      I would like you to refute the five arguments above because if they are sound, then we have a good ground to believe that Jesus is God. Moreover I would like you to engage with my last comment.

      Thank you once again for a Christ-like tune.

      In Christ Jesus,
      Prayson

  13. Hej Alexander,

    Thank you for your comment 🙂

    The Way followers were nicknamed Christians and there after known by that name. You threw in Colossians 1:15, Jesus being the firstborn of all creation but I believe you have overlook the context. We should try to understand terms within their context.

    Colossians 1:15-20 ESV

    [15] He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
    [16] For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
    [17] And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
    [18] And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.
    [19] For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,
    [20] and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

    Jesus is the firstborn of all creation(15) and Jesus is the firstborn from the dead(18). Before jumping into conclusion and reading our own meaning in the Bible, we ought to sit back and let the Bible give its own meaning.

    A good place to start is Psalm 89:26-27 were God anointed David his servant as his firstborn (v20)

    “He[David] shall cry to me, ‘You are my Father, my God, and the Rock of my salvation.’ And I will make him the firstborn,the highest of the kings of the earth.”

    From this verses we see that firstborn is appointed(made) by God.

    Paul also argue that Jesus :

    For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.(Romans 8:29 ESV)

    Jesus is the firstborn among Christian believers.

    In Jeremiah 31:9, God said He is a father to Israel, and Ephraim is his firstborn.
    Does this mean Ephraim is first created?

    From these, firstborn can not mean what you want it to mean. Because it is a title order of authority and not creation(cf first-fruit).

    Proverbs 8:22-31 does not support you position because one has to argue that God did not have/possess wisdom before that which is absurd.

    Back to Col 1:16-17

    By Jesus ALL THINGS were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominion. If ALL THINGS were created through him, and Nehemiah 9:6 say “You alone are the LORD. You made the heavens, even the highest heavens, and all their starry host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to everything, and the multitudes of heaven worship you.” Then Jesus is LORD.

    If God alone created all things, and give life to everything and Jesus and his Father created all things and giver life, then Jesus and his Father are the one and only God.

    Please let me hear your thought. I would be so grateful if we speak as brothers in Christ-like tune that glorifies God.

    In Christ Jesus,
    Prayson

  14. I have never read such rubbish in all my life. Jesus Christ who in his original capacity as the Word, is the firstborn of ‘all’ creation. (Colossians 1:15) This is why he is referred to as the ‘only begotten’, because this is the only one who was personally created by Almighty God; all else was created by the Word who worked beside Almighty God as a master worker. (Proverbs 8:22-31)

    Thr Trinity like most other unscriptural doctrines and faiths, is man-made.

    The only Christian movement recorded in the Holy Scriptures is ‘The Way’ (Acts 19:9, 23) I am one of them.

  15. I am not with the JWs, but I agree with them that Jesus was a creature, and that Jesus is not his God.

    Only a man can give to God the redemptive price, since it was man, not God, who sinned. That is Paul’s argument: “since death came by man, the resurrection of the dead also came by man.” — 1 Corinthians 15:21.

    Paul argued that “what the law couldn’t do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.” (Romans 8:3) Jesus became flesh, and although he suffered in the likeness of sinful flesh, his flesh was not sinful, since it was his God provided his body of flesh. (Hebrews 10:5) It is by this means that the God of Jesus could remain “just, and the justifier of him who has faith in Jesus.” (Romans 3:26) The redemptive price given by means of the man Jesus (1 Timothy 2:5,6), in effect, took the price laid upon the man Adam (death) and laid it upon the sinless flesh of the man Jesus. (Romans 5:12-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21,22) Only by this means did God remain just, and yet provide the means of justifying the sinner condemned by means of the disobedience of the first man, Adam. God, through His holy spirit, has revealed no other way of salvation anywhere in the words of the Bible. One has to look outside the Bible for such an idea.

    On the other hand, if Jesus had to be his God in order redeem man, then sin is justified, rather than condemned, in the flesh, and Paul would be proven to be wrong in his statement at Romans 8:3. It would mean that for Adam to have obeyed God, Adam would have needed to have been his God.

    No scripture, however, ever says that no creature cannot pay the redemptive price. Such has to be assumed beyond what is revealed through the scriptures, and the assumption has to be read into the scriptures.

    Nevertheless, denying that Jesus is his God does not mean to deny the deity of Christ, as many trinitarians seem to think.

    • Thank you so much for your comment 🙂

      I do agree that Christ Jesus, a man whom the “whole fullness of deity dwells bodily”(Colossians 2:9) is the redeemer. Though I believe you have overlooked the Nature of Christ Jesus namely Fully man and fully God. 🙂

      No creature can redeem another creatures is derived from a reflection of a Biblical position viz. Yahweh is the Only Savior, meaning God and God alone can redeem as from the power of sin and giving eternal life.

      I did not understand what you meant by “If Jesus had to be his God”. Please explain, so I am not attach a strawman 🙂

      I am still waiting for your reply at Pow! There Goes Jehovah’s Witness Down

      In Christ Jesus,

      Prayson

  16. Jesus may be non-existent. Many religious scholars doubt his existence, or if he did exist then he was nothing more than a mortal. Since we actually have no hard undeniable evidence for him, and we have no hard evidence for magic…I say he didn’t exist.

    The premises for the little Haiku’s you play with above mean nothing; words such as those prove nothing…you need “Hard” physical evidence that one can see or handle.

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