Skeptic Debunking Zeitgeist: Is Jesus Another Sun God?

A non-Christian, Edward L Winston, went into detail examining the truthfulness of internet’s most popular myth known as Copy-Cat theory. The basic claim of Copy-Cat theorist is that Christianity is a copy of many other ancient sun-god religions. Winston used Peter Joseph’s Zeitgeist movie as his source for copy-cat theorist claims.

He writes:

“If they say something in the film not included in the transcript, I will insert it in red. As you can see below, their claim is indented, and below it I will correct anything that is inaccurate. As I said on the main page, some things are true, such as that the zodiac exists and that Horus was an Egyptian god, so I will not touch things like this. I should note that just because it contains grains of fact, does not make the movie factual.”

When I dealt with this topic, Copy-cat theory apologist tagged me a Bible-brainwashed Christian. Well here is skeptic and a non-Christian, Edward L Winston, refuting the same claim: Zeitgeist – Part I: The Greatest Story Ever Told

Related article:

Zeitgeist – Companion Guide – by Edward L Winston

Busting The Dying And Rising Gods Myths – by Prayson Daniel

Justin Martyr And Zeitgeist’s Apologists

In the previous articles I challenged the Copy-Cat-Theorist, who claim that Christianity is a copy-cat of other pagan dying-rising sun gods, to present a copy or a copy of copies of original document before A.D. 150 that support their assertions. None thus far has succeeded to do so. Quite the contrary, the copies of original documents that I found tells a totally different story: See Busting The Dying And Rising Gods Myths (cf Horus, Mithra, and Krishna ).

One of my favorite blog follower, Jay Osborne, a copy-cat-theorist apologist who admitted that its impossible to produce that kind of earlier evidences “at least right now but it may be found later on”, presented the First Apology of Justin Martyr as an evidence that Christianity copied from other pagan dying and rising gods.

Jay commented:

Justin Martyr wrote around 150 A.D.He admits that the Mithra Eucharist was first before christianity,that means he knew that Mithra belief was before christianity,and then shows through other pagan sun gods that the wine (vine Jn.15:5 and elsewhere in the N.T.)were first,that a crucifixtion,resurrection,babtism,ascending to heaven,born of a virgin,riding on an ass,healing,raising people from the dead were all before christianity.The Devil got there first was his only lame excuse.Don’t try to twist what Justin said leave it plain like Justin wrote it.( Jay Osborne | December 11, 2011 at 23:22)

Did Justin Martyr wrote that? Let take a look at the passages that Jay pointed that are “claimed” to give support to the assertion that Christianity is a copy-cat of other pagan dying and rising sun gods.

Critical Thinking And Zeitgeist’s Case

But first I would like to show that even if its true (for argument sake) that there are mythical record of dying and rising sun gods prior to Christ Jesus, that by itself  does not entail that one copied from the other.

Example: If you have read Morgan Robertson’s fictional work viz. The Wreck of the Titan or Futility (Buccaneer Books, Cutchogue, New York, 1898) 14 years before the RSM Titanic disaster and W. T. Stead, an English journalist, who wrote a fictional account of sinking passenger-liner in mid- Atlantic caused by an iceberg in 1882, should we then conclude that RSM Titanic struck of iceberg and sank on 15 April 1912 claiming 1517 people lives was a myth? It does look like RSM is a copy-cat of these fictional works.

What this example shows is that even if event p happens/recorded prior to event/record q it is logically fallacious to reason as Copy-Cat Myth apologist wish as too, namely  q copied p.  Zeitgeist apologists assertion commits post hoc, ergo propter hoc fallacy.

FallacyFiles gives a good example and exposition of this wrong reasoning:

Roosters crow just before the sun rises.
Therefore, roosters crowing cause the sun to rise.

Exposition:

The Post Hoc Fallacy is committed whenever one reasons to a causal conclusion based solely on the supposed cause preceding its “effect”. Of course, it is a necessary condition of causation that the cause precede the effect, but it is not a sufficient condition. Thus, post hoc evidence may suggest the hypothesis of a causal relationship, which then requires further testing, but it is never sufficient evidence on its own.

Thus even if true that there are documents prior to Christianity that records of dying and rising sun gods, Copy-Cat theorist  errs in their reasoning.


Let Look At Justin Martyr’s Work: Does It Give Proof To Copy-Cat Theory?

The First Apology by Justin Martyr was addressed to Emperor Titus Aelius Adrianus Antoninus Pius Augustus Caesar and his sons written c.150-160 A.D. In his letter Justin presented the Emperor with reasons to why Christian ought to be treated justly.
I would like to quote the entire chapter to show how scholarly dishonest the work of copy-cat-theorist’s are. I presented the whole chapter so that you can see how out of context the passages the cherry-pick are: I used Roberts-Donaldson English Translation of Justin’s work.

Zeitgeist’s Apologist’s claim:“[In Chapter 8] Justin Martyr states that the judgment of Rhadamanthus and Minos, as stated by Plato, would in fact happen by Jesus. In addition, he states that it would happen for the same time period that Plato named.”


Chapter VIII: CHRISTIANS CONFESS THEIR FAITH IN GOD.

And reckon ye that it is for your sakes we have been saying these things; for it is in our power, when we are examined, to deny that we are Christians; but we would not live by telling a lie. For, impelled by the desire of the eternal and pure life, we seek the abode that is with God, the Father and Creator of all, and hasten to confess our faith, persuaded and convinced as we are that they who have proved to God by their works that they followed Him, and loved to abide with Him where there is no sin to cause disturbance, can obtain these things. This, then, to speak shortly, is what we expect and have learned from Christ, and teach. And Plato, in like manner, used to say that Rhadamanthus and Minos would punish the wicked who came before them; and we say that the same thing will be done, but at the hand of Christ, and upon the wicked in the same bodies united again to their spirits which are now to undergo everlasting punishment; and not only, as Plato said, for a period of a thousand years. And if any one say that this is incredible or impossible, this error of ours is one which concerns ourselves only, and no other person, so long as you cannot convict us of doing any harm.

Answer: Justin pointed out that the wicked would be punish at the hand of Christ who is the eternal judge. Plato believed that in Dualism, and that our souls are immortal, thus Justin is showing that the wicked would go through everlasting punishment.

Zeitgeist’s Apologist’s claim: “In chapter 18, titled “Proof of Immortality and the Resurrection”, Justin Martyr simply cites the beliefs of pagans as evidence that an immortal soul and the resurrection of Jesus was possible and did in fact happen.”

CHAPTER XVIII — PROOF OF IMMORTALITY AND THE RESURRECTION.

For reflect upon the end of each of the preceding kings, how they died the death common to all, which, if it issued in insensibility, would be a godsend to all the wicked. But since sensation remains to all who have ever lived, and eternal punishment is laid up (i.e., for the wicked), see that ye neglect not to be convinced, and to hold as your belief, that these things are true. For let even necromancy, and the divinations you practise by immaculate children, and the evoking of departed human souls, and those who are called among the magi, Dream-senders and Assistant-spirits (Familiars), and all that is done by those who are skilled in such matters–let these persuade you that even after death souls are in a state of sensation; and those who are seized and cast about by the spirits of the dead, whom all call daemoniacs or madmen; and what you repute as oracles, both of Amphilochus, Dodana, Pytho, and as many other such as exist; and the opinions of your authors, Empedocles and Pythagoras, Plato and Socrates, and the pit of Homer, and the descent of Ulysses to inspect these things, and all that has been uttered of a like kind. Such favour as you grant to these, grant also to us, who not less but more firmly than they believe in God; since we expect to receive again our own bodies, though they be dead and cast into the earth, for we maintain that with God nothing is impossible.

Answer: Justin wanted the same favor grant to the belief of other (viz.the state of the soul or immortality soul and “all of the like”) to also be granted to Christians.

Zeitgeist’s Apologist’s claim: “Justin Martyr compares the beliefs and teachings of Christianity with the poets (those who created the Greek myths), the philosophers, Plato, the Stoics, Meander, and other similar writers.”

CHAPTER XX — HEATHEN ANALOGIES TO CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE.

And the Sibyl and Hystaspes said that there should be a dissolution by God of things corruptible. And the philosophers called Stoics teach that even God Himself shall be resolved into fire, and they say that the world is to be formed anew by this revolution; but we understand that God, the Creator of all things, is superior to the things that are to be changed. If, therefore, on some points we teach the same things as the poets and philosophers whom you honour, and on other points are fuller and more divine in our teaching, and if we alone afford proof of what we assert, why are we unjustly hated more than all others? For while we say that all things have been produced and arranged into a world by God, we shall seem to utter the doctrine of Plato; and while we say that there will be a burning up of all, we shall seem to utter the doctrine of the Stoics: and while we affirm that the souls of the wicked, being endowed with sensation even after death, are punished, and that those of the good being delivered from punishment spend a blessed existence, we shall seem to say the same things as the poets and philosophers; and while we maintain that men ought not to worship the works of their hands, we say the very things which have been said by the comic poet Menander, and other similar writers, for they have declared that the workman is greater than the work.

Answer: I would bold the following of what Justin wrote: “If, therefore, on some points we teach the same things as the poets and philosophers whom you honour, and on other points are fuller and more divine in our teaching, and if we alone afford proof of what we assert, why are we unjustly hated more than all others?” 1. Christian alone afford proof of what they asserted and 2. the passage is about new creation and the soul the state of the soul in that period: the Stoics believed that even God will resolved into fire, while Christian believed that God is superior and transcend creation thus an affected by new creation.

Zeitgeist’s Apologist’s claim: [Chapter 21] is rather self-explanatory. Justin Martyr simply states that the virgin birth of Jesus, without sexual union, as well as his crucifixion, death, and resurrection were nothing different from the mythology surrounding Jupiter (In Greece, Zeus).

CHAPTER XXI — ANALOGIES TO THE HISTORY OF CHRIST.

And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter. For you know how many sons your esteemed writers ascribed to Jupiter: Mercury, the interpreting word and teacher of all; AEsculapius, who, though he was a great physician, was struck by a thunderbolt, and so ascended to heaven; and Bacchus too, after he had been torn limb from limb; and Hercules, when he had committed himself to the flames to escape his toils; and the sons of Leda, and Dioscuri; and Perseus, son of Danae; and Bellerophon, who, though sprung from mortals, rose to heaven on the horse Pegasus. For what shall I say of Ariadne, and those who, like her, have been declared to be set among the stars? And what of the emperors who die among yourselves, whom you deem worthy of deification, and in whose behalf you produce some one who swears he has seen the burning Caesar rise to heaven from the funeral pyre? And what kind of deeds are recorded of each of these reputed sons of Jupiter, it is needless to tell to those who already know. This only shall be said, that they are written for the advantage and encouragement of youthful scholars; for all reckon it an honourable thing to imitate the gods. But far be such a thought concerning the gods from every well-conditioned soul, as to believe that Jupiter himself, the governor and creator of all things, was both a parricide and the son of a parricide, and that being overcome by the love of base and shameful pleasures, he came in to Ganymede and those many women whom he had violated and that his sons did like actions. But, as we said above, wicked devils perpetrated these things. And we have learned that those only are deified who have lived near to God in holiness and virtue; and we believe that those who live wickedly and do not repent are punished in everlasting fire.

Answer: Justin pointed out the things pagans believe about their gods are not alien to those which Christians were claiming about Christ Jesus. He did name what those things here. He did not leave us wondering and I believe virgin birth(listed in connection with Ferseus), crucifixion and resurrection on the 3rd day are not listed here.

Zeitgeist’s Apologist’s claim: “Similar to above, Justin Martyr compares the birth of Jesus and his status as the “Word of God’ to that of Mercury, who was also born in a similar way and who was also the “Word of God.” He goes on to compare the crucifixion with the lives of the sons of Jupiter, which were on par according to him. Finally concluding by comparing the birth of Jesus with Perseus, and his miracles with that of Aesculapius.”

CHAPTER XXII — ANALOGIES TO THE SONSHIP OF CHRIST.

Moreover, the Son of God called Jesus, even if only a man by ordinary generation, yet, on account of His wisdom, is worthy to be called the Son of God; for all writers call God the Father of men and gods. And if we assert that the Word of God was born of God in a peculiar manner, different from ordinary generation, let this, as said above, be no extraordinary thing to you, who say that Mercury is the angelic word of God. But if any one objects that He was crucified, in this also He is on a par with those reputed sons of Jupiter of yours, who suffered as we have now enumerated. For their sufferings at death are recorded to have been not all alike, but diverse; so that not even by the peculiarity of His sufferings does He seem to be inferior to them; but, on the contrary, as we promised in the preceding part of this discourse, we will now prove Him superior–or rather have already proved Him to be so–for the superior is revealed by His actions. And if we even affirm that He was born of a virgin, accept this in common with what you accept of Ferseus. And in that we say that He made whole the lame, the paralytic, and those born blind, we seem to say what is very similar to the deeds said to have been done by AEsculapius.

Answer: Justin pointed out that Jupiter suffered, thus it ought not be alien to pagan to accept Christian asserting that Jesus, son of God suffered. Perseus was commonly accept to be born of a virgin(records says a different story) and miracle works of Æsculapius.

Perseus born of a virgin?

It is complicate. Perseus was the son of Danae . He was born when Danae was impregnated by Zeus in the form of a golden shower. (Homer Iliad 14.319, Pindar Pythian 12. 16, Apollodorus 2.34, Strabo 10.5.10, Herodotus 6.53 & 7.61, Diodorus Siculus 4.9.1, Hyginus Fabulae 63 & 155, Ovid Metamorphoses 4.607, Nonnus Dionysiaca 2.286, et al). Keep in mind that his records are recorded in 2nd century.

In Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca 2. 26 & 34 (trans. Aldrich) (Greek mythographer C2nd A.D.)

In fear Akrisios constructed a bronze chamber beneath the earth, where he kept Danae under guard. Now some say that Proitos seduced her, which led to the hard feelings between the brothers, but others say that Zeus had sex with her by changing himself into gold that streamed in through the ceiling and down into her womb. When Akrisios later learned that she had given birth to Perseus, not believing that Zeus seduced her, he cast his daughter out to sea with her son on an ark. The ark drifted ashore at Seriphos, where Diktys recovered the child and brought him up.

Also in Pseudo-Hyginus, Fabulae 63 (trans. Grant) (Roman mythographer C2nd A.D.) :

“Danae was the daughter of Acrisius and Aganippe. A prophecy about her said that the child she bore would kill Acrisius, and Acrisius, fearing this, shut her in a stone-walled prison. But Jove [Zeus], changing into a shower of gold, lay with Danae, and from this embrace Perseus was born. Because of her sin her father shut her up in a chest with Perseus and cast it into the sea. By Jove’s [Zeus’] will it was borne to the island of Seriphus, and when the fisherman Dictys found it and broke it open, he discovered the mother and child. He took them to King Polydectes, who married Danae and brought up Perseus in the temple of Minerva [Athena].”

Sources that show that records Perseus and show that he was not born of a virgin:

• Homer, The Iliad – Greek Epic C8th B.C.
• Hesiod, Theogony – Greek Epic C8th-7th B.C.
• Hesiod, Shield of Heracles – Greek Epic C8th-7th B.C.
• Pindar, Odes – Greek Lyric C5th B.C.
• Aeschylus, Fragments – Greek Tragedy C5th B.C.
• Euripides, Alcestis – Greek Tragedy C5th B.C.
• Apollodorus, The Library – Greek Mythography C2nd A.D.
• Apollonius Rhodius, The Argonautica – Greek Epic C3rd B.C.
• Lycophron, Alexandra – Greek Poetry C3rd B.C.
• Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History – Greek History C1st B.C.
• Strabo, Geography – Greek Geography C1st B.C. – C1st A.D.
• Pausanias, Description Greece – Greek Travelogue C2nd A.D.
• Quintus Smyrnaeus, Fall of Troy – Greek Epic C4th A.D.
• Hyginus, Fabulae – Latin Mythography C2nd A.D.
• Hyginus, Astronomica – Latin Mythography C2nd A.D.
• Ovid, Metamorphoses – Latin Epic C1st B.C. – C1st A.D.
• Propertius, Elegies – Latin Elegy C1st B.C.
• Valerius Flaccus, The Argonautica – Latin Epic C1st A.D.
• Statius, Thebaid – Latin Epic C1st A.D.
• Nonnos, Dionysiaca – Greek Epic C5th A.D.
• Suidas – Byzantine Greek Lexicon C10th A.D.

We could go on and go into Justin’s First apology. In short the Copy-Cat Theory are doing eisegesis (reading into the text) and not exegesis (reading out of the text)

As I end, a quote from Justin which showed that Christians are not offering just another mythical account but “… [they] alone afford proof of what [they] assert …

I would recommend: Skeptic Project- Zeitgeist Movement , a group of non-Christians who aim to refuting myths.

So the challenge is on, the burden of proof on the shoulders of  a Copy-Cat-Theorist, who claim that Christianity is a copy of other pagan dying-rising sun gods, to present copy or a copy of copies of original document before A.D. 150 and a valid case.

Busting The Dying And Rising Gods Myths

Horus

Horus Myth’s Myth

  • Horus was born of a virgin Isis on December 25th
  • Had 12 disciples
  • Crucified, dead, and resurrected on the 3rd day

Horus Myth’s Facts:

  • Born of a widow Isis, who revived her murdered husband Osiris to conceive Horus. Born on 5th days of Epagomenal Days, August 24th and 28th.
  • Had 4 semi-gods(heru-shemsu), 16 human and unnumbered blacksmiths(Mesniu) as his followers.
  • Did not die. He merged with the sun god, Ra and was thereafter known as Re-Horakhty.

Attis Myth’s Myth:

  • Born of virgin Nana on December 25 th
  • Crucified, dead, resurrected on the 3rd day.

Attis

Attis Myth’s Facts:

  • Complicate. Nana was impregnated by almond fruits from a tree that grew from a chopped manhood of Agdistis.
  • No crucifixion. Dies every winter and rises(born) again every spring. Winter is longer than 3 days
  • Spring is not in December

Krishna Myth’s Myth:

  • Born of a virgin Devaki on December 25th
  • Upon his death was resurrected

Krishna Myth’s Facts:

  • The eighth son, born of princess Devaki, and fathered by Vasudeva.
  • Traditional belief and scriptural detail places his birth on Janmashtami 19th or 21st July 3228 B.C.
  • Mistaken as a deer  by a brave hunter Jara, who shot  him at the heel and killed Krishna .
  • Krishna died and his soul directly ascend to heaven living the body behind.

Dionysos

Dionysus Myth’s Myth:

  • Born of a virgin on December 25th
  • Upon his death, resurrected

Dionysus Myth’s Facts:

  • Not born of a virgin, Dionysus mortal mother Semele, daughter of Cadmus was in relationship with Zeus.
  • Dies every winter just to rise again in spring
  • Dionysus was a god of wine, therefore he did change water to wine.

Mithra Myth’s Myth:

  • Born of Virgin, on December 25th.
  • Had 12 disciples.
  • Upon his death, was buried for 3 days and thus resurrected.

Mithra Myth’s Facts:

  • Roman’s Mithra was chopped out of a rock as a fully grown man.
  • Iranian’s Mithra is said to be born a virgin Anahita. This is unlikely because Anahita was sometimes regarded as his consort(royal mate)
  • Did not die. After his mission, he was taken to paradise in a chariot alive and well.

    Mithra

N.B: December 25th was adopted by catholic church around 300 A.D, probably for easy acceptability of new Christians coming from paganism.

Copy-Cat Myth lovers, read the original or copies of original manuscripts and find out for yourself. In sources below I have listed some of Universities or Museums that have translate some of the manuscripts.

Sources: Continue reading

Pow! There Goes Horus Myth Down

Copyist: Do you know that Christians borrowed  Jesus, the Son of God Story from Horus, the Sun god of Egypt, who was worshiped about 3000 years before Jesus?

Horus

Christian: How could that be possible? 5000 years ago, Horus was not a sun god. Ra was the god of the sun and Horus was a god of the Sky.

Copyist: Oh! Is that so?

Christian: Yes, the moon and the sun were considered as the eyes of Horus. He was then known as Heru-khuti.

Copyist: Okay, that is just a small false detail, but you can not deny that they copied Horus birth day, Horus was also born on December 25th.

Christian: That is false. First, Christians do not know which date Jesus was born, and second, you got it wrong claiming that Horus was born on December 25th. Horus, in some traditions, is believed to born on the 5th day of Epagomenal Days.

Copyist: Is not Epagomenal Days, December 25th?

Christian: Nope, Historians places them in August 24-28th in our modern calendars.

Copyist: What will you say then, to the virgin birth, by Isis-Meri, Meri sounds like Virgin Mary? Continue reading

Refuting Krishna Myth Parallelism To Christianity

I would recommend you to first read, Refuting Mithra and Attis Myth Parallelism To Christianity, because I will not repeat some of the obvious errors that Copy-Cat Myth lovers commit.

Krishna

In this article, I set to bust another claim, that refute Copy-Cat Theory myth. Krishna is claimed to have being crucified, died and rose again in three days just like Christian story. But a simple read of original documents tells another story:

The Mahabharata of Krishna-Dwaipayana Vyasa; translated by Kisari Mohan Ganguli(published between 1883 and 1896) records the following accounts:

“A fierce hunter of the name of Jara then came there, desirous of deer. The hunter, mistaking Keshava, who was stretched on the earth in high Yoga, for a deer, pierced him at the heel with a shaft and quickly came to that spot for capturing his prey. Coming up, Jara beheld a man dressed in yellow robes, rapt in Yoga and endued with many arms. Regarding himself an offender, and filled with fear, he touched the feet of Keshava. The high-souled one comforted him and then ascended upwards, filling the entire welkin with splendour. When he reached Heaven, Vasava and the twin Ashvinis and Rudra and the Adityas and the Vasus and the Viswedevas, and Munis and Siddhas and many foremost ones among the Gandharvas, with the Apsaras, advanced to receive him. Then, O king, the illustrious Narayana of fierce energy, the Creator and Destroyer of all, that preceptor of Yoga, filling Heaven with his splendour, reached his own inconceivable region. Krishna then met the deities and (celestial) Rishis and Charanas, O king, and the foremost ones among the Gandharvas and many beautiful Apsaras and Siddhas and Saddhyas. All of them, bending in humility, worshipped him. The deities all saluted him, O monarch, and many foremost of Munis and Rishis worshipped him who was the Lord of all. The Gandharvas waited on him, hymning his praises, and Indra also joyfully praised him.”(Mahabharata, Book 16: Mausala Parva Section 4) Continue reading

A Chat With Atheists

Dialogue Between A Christian And Negative Atheist:

This dialogue is fictional but inspired by the comments in this blog. Enjoy the dialogue between Christian, Negative Atheist, and Positive Atheist.

Christian: I have offered you six arguments for existence of God, what do you think about them.

Negative atheist: They are flaw, can you not see that? If you can’t then maybe that is your problem.

Christian: How are they flaw?

Negative atheist: There is NO evidence that can prove ANY god exists

Christian: But can you at least show me where the flaw in these six arguments for existence of God?

Negative atheist: It is just flaw, haven’t you read the mocking, jeering, and insulting of on these arguments found in the”clever atheistic bloggers and youtube clips, the arguments are just flaw, they have being refuted! Can you not see that?

Christian: Please share at least one flaw from these atheistic bloggers

Negative atheist: Kalam argument example, Everything that begin to exist has a cause. Where does god come from…what caused him to exist??

Christian: I think you misunderstood the argument. It does not argue for everything that exist has a cause, but everything that BEGIN to exist. God did NOT BEGIN to exist thus needs no cause. Continue reading