Refuting Mithras Myth Parallelism To Christianity


By Prayson Daniel


Is Christianity A Copy-Cat of Mithraism?

Nothing in Christianity is original. The pre-Christian God Mithras—called the Son of God and the Light of the World—was born on December 25, died, was buried in a rock tomb, and then resurrected in three days.”( The Da Vinci Code, Dan Brown 2003, p. 232)

Christianity, claimed by some of its critics, is a copy-cat of Mithraism because the idea of Born of a virgin, born on the 25th of December, born in a stable with shepherds present(or visiting of three Kings), twelve disciples, killed and buried in a tomb/cave to which he rose from the dead three days are borrowed from Mithraism.

A lay Christian who has little knowledge in Philosophical, Theological and Historical Foundation of Christianity would be trouble by such claims. Why so?

Some of Christian Critics Play With Christians’ Ignorance

We are in a period that is influenced by popular entertainment media of every kind, from blogs, movies, TV, and so on. Some of these entertainment medias feed us with false information that are often absorb without critical reasoning or checking their truthfulness.

Before refuting Mithras Myth Parallelism To Christianity, it is best we aware of some known facts.

Son of God and Sun-God English-Word-Play Trick:

English word-play is used to connect Christ Jesus, the Son of God with other Sun-gods. Word play in “O” and “U”. This kind of word-play is an example of forced parallelism that does not work. One of the reason is that English language did not exist in that period of History.(English was not present at rise and practices of Christianity and Mithraism.(Used language was Greek,Huios(Son) and Helios(Sun). Another example of word-play is: gospel to » God spell instead of its origin euangelion, eu-good, angelion-message and First Matter to Virgin Matter to Virgin Mother)

December 25 And Three Kings:

Christ Jesus been born on December 25 was an adopted date by the Catholic Church, ca. 300 years later after Christianity had already began. Lukes 2:8-12 Shepherds in the fields at night decreases the probability that the birth period of Christ Jesus was in winter(December). December 25 as the birth date of Jesus is not Biblical or Historical supported.

Three kings, There are not three kings , but magi(wise man from the East), to whom there number is unknown. It is not until Middle Ages that legend had it that they were Kings and Three in number(probably because of the three gift they offered Mary).

Christ Fish to Zodiac Age of Pisces

ICHTHUSGreek; Fish” is an acronym of (I)ēsous Christos, Theou Huios, Sōtēr. Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior. Thus the claim that Christian symbol of fish is because of Jesus been born at the Zodiac Age of Pisces is in deed fishy.

Checking Truthfulness of Mithras

In checking the truthfulness of claims, choose your sources wisely.

Encyclopedia Britannica:

“There is little notice of the Persian god [Mithra] in the Roman world until the beginning of the 2nd century, but, from the year AD 136 onward, there are hundreds of dedicatory inscriptions to Mithra. This renewal of interest is not easily explained. The most plausible hypothesis seems to be that Roman Mithraism was practically a new creation, wrought by a religious genius who may have lived as late as c. AD 100 and who gave the old traditional Persian ceremonies a new Platonic interpretation that enabled Mithraism to become acceptable to the Roman world” (Article entry: Mithraism 2004 edition)

If Encyclopedia Britannica is correct, then Mithraism has not inspire Christianity for the Gospel accounts of Jesus, because they were already written by then.

Refuting Mithras Virgin Birth

They are two accounts of Mithras birth, the Persian’s and the Roman’s account of his birth. In Roman’s account, Mithras is born as an adult out of a rock in a cave:

Mithraic Studies, Mithras, “wearing his Phrygian cap, issues forth from the rocky mass. As yet only his bare torso is visible. In each hand he raises aloft a lighted torch and, as an unusual detail, red flames shoot out all around him from the petra genetrix.” Franz Cumon, “The Dura Mithraeum” in John R. Hinnells (ed.), Mithraic Studies: Proceedings of the First International Congress of Mithraic Studies (Manchester University Press, 1975), 173.

Also Manfred Clauss, German Professor for Ancient History in The Roman Cult of Mithras, writes:

“The literary sources here are few but unmistakable: Mithras was known as the rock-born god. The inscriptions confirm this nomenclature: one even reads D(eo) O(omipotenti) S(oli) Invi(cto), Deo Genitori, r(upe) n(ato), ‘To the almighty God Sun invincible, generative god, born from the rock’….Mithras also appears in the archaeological record as the rock-born god. Many images represent the god growing out of a rock with both arms raised aloft….After the bull-slaying, the rock-birth is the most frequently represented event of the myth, either as a detail on reliefs or, quite commonly, as a free-standing image.” (Clauss, The Roman Cult of Mithras, page 62-63)

Thus unless the rocky mass is a human and virgin, and a fully grown Mithra is a baby, it quite deceptive to claim that this is a Virgin birth.

In Persian’s account of Mithras birth, some argue, was born of Anahita, a goddess that is portrayed as a virgin, dressed in a golden cloak, and wearing a diamond tiara. But this is unlikely because Anahita was sometimes regarded as the consort of Mithra( Encyclopedia Mythica)

G. Widengren, scholar of Iranian myth, argues:

“According to the “legend” of the mysteries Mithras was born from a rock, petra genetrix giving life to him. He is therefore de petra natus… We also know that Mithra was born on the shore of the river Araxes, Ps. Plutarch, De fluviis 23 par. 4 (where, however, a confusion is found in so far as this story is attributed to a son of Mithras), that his father hated women and therefore threw his sperm on a rock which afterwards was pregnant. These details are not as the great pioneer in Mithraic studies [Franz Cumont]assumed “de pure fantaisie”, on the contrary they are part of a birth myth attested among the Ossetians in Caucasus and have already in the Hurrian “Epic of Kumarbi” an unmistakable association. The localization of this scene of Mithra’s birth to the shore of the Araxes in Armenia confirms our presumption that north-western Iran and Armenia was the homeland of Mithraic mysteries. Also the shepherds who are seen on Mithraic reliefs in connection with the birth-scene possess their correspondence in Ossetic tales and Iranian salvation legends, and indicate likewise a north-western origin of the stories about Mithra’s birth”¹

Refuting Crucification, Death and Resurrection of Mithras

There is no record of him being a great teacher with 12 disciples. The only possible association is when Mithra was surrounded by 12 signs(personages of Zodiac) at the slaying of the bull(which is post Christian)

Mithras did not bodily resurrect, One of the myth has it that he was taken to paradise in a chariot alive and well after finishing his earthly mission(No crucification, no resurrection).

Again the German Professor for Ancient History, Manfred Clauss points out

“…the entire discussion is largely unhistorical. To raise the issue of a competition between the two religions is to assume that Christians and Mithraists had the same aims. Such a view exaggerates the missionary zeal — itself a Christian idea — of the other mystery cults. None of them aimed to become the sole legitimate religion of the Roman empire, because they offered an entirely individual and personal salvation. The alternative ‘Mithras or Christ?’ is wrongly framed, because it postulates a competitive situation which, in the eyes of Mithraists, simply did not exist….We should not simply transpose Christian views and terms in this area onto other mystery cults. Most of the parallels between Mithraism and Christianity are part of the common currency of all mystery cults or can be traced back to common origins in the Graeco-oriental culture of the Hellenistic world. The similarities do not at all suggest mutual influence….there are more substantial parallels at the ritual level, particularly the ritual meal….” (Clauss, The Roman Cult of Mithras, page 168-169,)

We should not simply transpose Christian views and terms onto other mystery cults. It would be reading Christianity into other mythical religion/cult and not the other way around.

Biblical Response:

These claims are not new objections to Christianity, as 2 Peter 1 :16-18 answers almost the same kind of objection:

For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For when he received honor and glory from God the Father, and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased,” we ourselves heard this very voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain.(2 Peter 1:16-18 ESV)

To A Christian:

One of the greatest command is to love God with all your mind, and that we are called to be ready to give defense to the hope that we hold with love and gentleness. Thus I plea to you to live like Biblical Christians, be ready to give defense of the faith that you hold in Christ Jesus, sharpen your thinking by taking Logic class, Historical, Theological and Philosophical foundation of Christianity.

Know what you believe and why you believe with reasons and evidences thus when the faith is shaken, the facts hold you on solid ground.

To Jesus-Myth/Copycat Theory Advocate.

The Burden of Proof is in on your side, the responsibility of proving a disputed allegation is place on the affirming side. Copycat Theory advocate affirms that Christianity is a copycat of other myth, to which Christians deny.

I will conclude with the late great evangelical philosopher and apologist Ronald Nash’ Seven Arguments Agaist Christian Dependence of The Mysteries in the Article “Was the New Testament Influenced by Pagan Religions”

I conclude by noting seven points that undermine liberal efforts to show that first-century Christianity borrowed essential beliefs and practices from the pagan mystery religions.

(1) Arguments offered to “prove” a Christian dependence on the mysteries illustrate the logical fallacy of false cause. This fallacy is committed whenever someone reasons that just because two things exist side by side, one of them must have caused the other. As we all should know, mere coincidence does not prove causal connection. Nor does similarity prove dependence.

(2) Many alleged similarities between Christianity and the mysteries are either greatly exaggerated or fabricated. Scholars often describe pagan rituals in language they borrow from Christianity. The careless use of language could lead one to speak of a “Last Supper” in Mithraism or a “baptism” in the cult of Isis. It is inexcusable nonsense to take the word “savior” with all of its New Testament connotations and apply it to Osiris or Attis as though they were savior-gods in any similar sense.

(3) The chronology is all wrong. Almost all of our sources of information about the pagan religions alleged to have influenced early Christianity are dated very late. We frequently find writers quoting from documents written 300 years later than Paul in efforts to produce ideas that allegedly influenced Paul. We must reject the assumption that just because a cult had a certain belief or practice in the third or fourth century after Christ, it therefore had the same belief or practice in the first century.

(4) Paul would never have consciously borrowed from the pagan religions. All of our information about him makes it highly unlikely that he was in any sense influenced by pagan sources. He placed great emphasis on his early training in a strict form of Judaism (Phil. 3:5). He warned the Colossians against the very sort of influence that advocates of Christian syncretism have attributed to him, namely, letting their minds be captured by alien speculations (Col. 2:8).

(5) Early Christianity was an exclusivistic faith. As J. Machen explains, the mystery cults were nonexclusive. “A man could become initiated into the mysteries of Isis or Mithras without at all giving up his former beliefs; but if he were to be received into the Church, according to the preaching of Paul, he must forsake all other Saviors for the Lord Jesus Christ….Amid the prevailing syncretism of the Greco-Roman world, the religion of Paul, with the religion of Israel, stands absolutely alone.”[2] This Christian exclusivism should be a starting point for all reflection about the possible relations between Christianity and its pagan competitors. Any hint of syncretism in the New Testament would have caused immediate controversy.

(6) Unlike the mysteries, the religion of Paul was grounded on events that actually happened in history. The mysticism of the mystery cults was essentially nonhistorical. Their myths were dramas, or pictures, of what the initiate went through, not real historical events, as Paul regarded Christ’s death and resurrection to be. The Christian affirmation that the death and resurrection of Christ happened to a historical person at a particular time and place has absolutely no parallel in any pagan mystery religion.

(7) What few parallels may still remain may reflect a Christian influence on the pagan systems. As Bruce Metzger has argued, “It must not be uncritically assumed that the Mysteries always influenced Christianity, for it is not only possible but probable that in certain cases, the influence moved in the opposite direction.”[3] It should not be surprising that leaders of cults that were being successfully challenged by Christianity should do something to counter the challenge. What better way to do this than by offering a pagan substitute? Pagan attempts to counter the growing influence of Christianity by imitating it are clearly apparent in measures instituted by Julian the Apostate, who was the Roman emperor from A.D. 361 to 363.

To that I will end this article by concluding that Christianity ideas being borrowed or influenced by Mithraism because of false parallel with Christianity is a “Myth”.

Related:

Conspiracy Science: A None Christian site dedicated in refuting all kinds of conspiracy.

Bib:

1. G. Widengren, “The Mithraic Mysteries in the Graeco-Roman World with Special Regard to their Iranian background”, La Persia e il mondo grecoromano Accad. Naz. dei Lincei 76(1966), pp. 444-45; I. M. Diakonoff, Phyrgian (Delmar, N.Y., 1985)

2. See W. F. Flemington, The New Testament Doctrine of Baptism (London: SPCK, 1948), 76-81.

3. See J. Gresham Machen, The Origin of Paul’s Religion (New York: Macmillan, 1925) 9

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195 thoughts on “Refuting Mithras Myth Parallelism To Christianity

  1. btw, i guess that by your own definition youre anti religious too! lol. afterall, you believe in historically and logically false notions. the ones in the bible.

  2. im not atheist i guess, im anti-religious. as i explained several times: i cant prove or disprove if god exists, but i can prove that many statements in the bible and used by christians are logically, historically or fysically impossible.so this, its about you stating stuff that has no proof, and then turning that around by stating since we cant disprove you its true. you post a blog,and you state a premise. that means youll have to argue your case, and ill have to ague mine, being in disagreement with you. but it starts with you supporting your initial claim by facts and logic. and there you fail in my opinion. besides, that wont change the fact that by stating that christ is the source and earlier civilizations copied him you seem to assume the scribes could time travel or sth? of maybe the sumerians or other had that power? no because is just fysically impossible. unlike the other option, this is not among the possibilities in our reality. you cant copy a book that wont be written for another few hundred years at least. and your link: it leads to….where exactly? im getting a main page, where am i supposed to look? to me, you failed to prove anything. so i choose to say you failed to convince me of the validity of your initial premise. send me a specific link, and ill read it, and well talk again. have a good one!

    • Thank you Prezzy. In this article, it does not matter whether the Bible is true or false, whether God exists or not. What matter is did first Christians copy Mithraism.

      It seems that both reasonable non-Christians(agnotics, atheists, skeptics et cetera) at Skeptics Projects and Christians are on the same page. But if it takes accepting an historical and logically false notion to be anti-religious, that is fine. All I would commend is for you to read what atheists who do not believe in God nor the truthfulness of the Bible have to say on this issue.

      Prezzy, you are an awesome person, and I know you are super intelligent. I also know you are kind from previous comments you made, and I know you are a lover of knowledge for you are always in search of knowledge. Keep looking Prezzy, solidify your anti-religion, keep finding reasons and proof for your position.

      Know that I love you, respect your position and will be here for you Prezzy.

      Yours,
      Prayson

      • eh, so wheres that link? or do you seriously expect me to go through that whole site to find the specific page youre referring to? come on prayson, stop stwisting in the wind and for once give a straight answer. its about you claiming that mithraism was copied from christianity, thats where i say youre wrong. if you wish to ignore the fysical contraints of carbon based existence to believe that, sure. that means you believe in magic then i guess. since again: time travel is impossible. it would also be really nice of you to be less condescending in your tone when you are the only one not providing any proof for your position. even when i ask you for a specific link in stead of the general one you claim to be of interest, you just ignore that and seem to think i have the time or the interest in completely checking every page it has. well i dont, and the page you linked has nothing on that subject. till now, still no proof or logic from your side. so where is that info i should read? im curious now.

      • he daniel: read the link, but, neh. first of all, its a critisizm of the movie zeitgeist by someone who is a skeptic, not per se a historian. and therefore not a historic piece of research. the piece, if you read it correctly, is a personal critique of the movie. second of all he makes such elementary mistakes that im starting to see the desperation in the way christians argue their facts if this is the kind of support their arguments need. like thinking he has all the needed evidence to support his claims , which noone actually has. all we have is what has not been lost, altered or stolen by the church or its enemies, and common sense. ow and the laws of time and space. also, pretty ironic that you think you can pick “evidence” from a side and carefully omit the rest. if youd ask this guy if the existence of god can be proven, or if the bible can be proven to be the true word of god, youd get a flat out no. hed also tell you that just because something is written down, it does not make it proof. on top of that: as you should know, being a minister , jesus was said to be born by immaculate conception, as in “without interference by man” and that does not imply virginity, and immaculate conception is something which, again, is impossible. current research suggests (see how they use suggest in stead of proves? scientists do that a lot) that if jesus even existed he was more than likely the bastardson of john the baptists father, the priest zecharias, and not josef. heres a nice common sense link for that and other details:

        http://www.tenbiggestmyths.net/religion/jesus.christ/1a.htm

        for being such a stickler for correctness you sure like to bend your own arguments. because of this, im not even gonna bother with going through the calendar discrepancies and the fact that im supposed to accept clearly unsupported hearsay when you can just ignore basic fysics. keep this in mind when you read the info in the link: its an old teachers trick to sneak errors in an examn to root out the ones cheating on the tests. those that copy eachother in order to cheat, will copy the errorrs without realising that. therefore its easy for me to say all of those stories are just that, stories, but the fact that even the same errors are copied also proves that the story of christ as told by christians cant be original. also, since it was you that introduced the word copycat in this discussion, id like to point out that thats probably the wrong expression: it seems more than likely that even the stories that inspired judaism, christianity, mithraism, islam, etc were preceded by stories that inspired the iconography and structure of these religions which again: has either been altered or stolen by the church itself or lost, or not discovered (yet). but theres always been a prior or a coexisting inspiration and like verbal history tends to do, the story gets embellished and altered. and guess what, that was the way all religious information was passed on before they codexed the religious books. for instance, in both christianity and islam, the actual book in its completed form appears about 100 years or later after the supposed events. now just to check: do you think youd get the true story if someone told you something (by word of mouth, with several persons before him doing the same) that “really happened”, that you would get the exact same story told conform the actual events it depicted? theres a very famous psychology experiment about that. which brings me back to trusting hard evidence. because you still havent answered me: how can that which does not exist yet copy something from its past? how can mythraism, being much older, have been copied/inspired from christianity? you wont answer because you cant. if you wanted to discuss the validity of arguments adressed in that movie, fine. i was pretty skeptic about its claims too. but that wasnt the subject. besides my problem with your reasoning was solely based on your premise that mithraism copied from christianity, when mithraisms core elements were already there when there even wasnt a christian alive, let alone the “historical christ”. so preyson, how does one plagiarise a book that hasnt been written yet? just to remind you of the ease with which the church used to adapt the facts to its needs: do you remember how thomas of aquine became a saint? the story of the pilchards? i dont even see the search for answers and explanations as an evil thing btw: everyone seems to look for proof to substantiate his or her beliefs. what i do see as a bad thing is the poisoning of the well, by willfully omitting or negating history like the thomas of aquine story by the church, or the destruction of the buddha statues in afghanistan by the islamists: or choosing biased “witness accounts” before fysical evidence. have a good one!

          • no, its a personal and factual critique of your choice in making this link you sent me evidence to support your claims. and i just – again, for the umpteenth time to refresh your rather selective memory – blew your arguments out of the water. you think you can derive facts from assumptions, so i proved you wrong. take for instance my last reply:its clear that you wont read what it says, but just what you can bend it into and that tells me youre actually just acting like you really want a discussion or conversation. and if thats the only reply you can come up with after what i just wrote yesterday, youre also just acting when you “show respect and love”. willfully ignoring a question actually shows disrespect and arrogance on your part. because you still, after repeated questioning havent answered any of my questions, the most important being: how can one copy from that which does not exist yet? untill you answered that in a logical and factually verifyable way, you have lost the argument. good day to you sir. and remember, if people stop argueing with you, its usually not because you won: its because they grow tired of your ignorance or unwillingness to accept basic facts. its no use arguing with people that dont accept the linearity of life as a basic premise.

          • Prezzy I read your comment but I believe you discredit the skeptic skeptic project as personal. So I wanted to see if personal means false.

            Prezzy, I did what I could but nothing would be accepted. I respect and love you. I failed you.

            Yours,
            Prayson

          • you just proved to everyone you either cant or wont read. only a really poorly educated person would equate personal with false. anyone would however would equate personal with NOT NECCESARILY CONFORMING TO OBJECTIVE REALITY. as in: NOT PROOF. the virgin birth argument i mentioned and killed off is just one example. if you didnt get it, check a few lines under here because im even repeating it to you, so you might finally open your eyes. and sth else: you did what you could? lol. and you lost the argument. nothing would be accepted? youre right, i dont accept anything if its not based in facts in this case. and you have not one fact. nothing. you offered nothing, so nothing can be accepted. 0 remains 0. and yes, you failed. still no answer on the linearity problem i guess. ow well. about “my critique” of that link you sent me: im critisizing your choice to use that article as an argument by showing the info in that link isnt fact. example: virgin birth and immaculate conception arent the same thing. that jesus was born without a man impregnating her does not mean jesus mum was a virging before that. actually: theres no such thing as virgin birth OR immaculate conception. so just read the link i sent you. i know it might feel like heresy to you, but hey. heresy is just another word for open and critical thinking about religious aspects. and the anti religious thing: if you actually knew what it meant you wouldnt have placed your last comment. so yeah, id like to see the time machine now. the one the mithaists used to go to the future when the christian bible was formed, in order to copy it for their own writings which predate the “original” by several hundred years. till then, youre proven wrong.

          • see prayson, its that kind of reply that shows me youre not interested in real answers. the 0 remark wasnt pointed at you, as anyone with basic readingskills would know. its the number of valid arguments you gave me. and that remark about -2 you made: sarcasm when you have no valid arguments left is a sign of weakness and defeat, as is your refusal to accept basic facts. now, accepting that you were wrong isnt going to happen, i know this. thats why ill stop commenting here. because its useless if its just a fight with words, which is what you seem to think this is, or you would have just accepted it and wondered about the implications. too bad.

      • Hej Prezzy. I believe I would move from 0 to 1 now 🙂

        I have started rereading Roger Beck “The Religion of the Mithras Cult in The Roman Empire: Mysteries of the Unconquered Sun” published by Oxford University Press (2006). Beck affirmed what I tried to tell you that even though some of Mithras teaching comes before Christianity, those which echoes Christianity does not. It seems that Mithraism evolved when Christianity was on scene. Beck wrote:

        Noteworthy here is the layering of beliefs: not only was Mithraism a faith, but it also evolved by accretion of earlier faiths, a process strikingly captured in the geological/botanical metaphor.

        Clearly, Christianity was the paradigm. The Cumontian model was cloned from the then dominant model of early Christianity, not deliberately but simply because that was the way the late nineteenth-century Western mind confronted religion. If you could make the case that a religion was doctrine-centred, then it was self-evidently a faith in which its initiates believed, and so could be brigaded with Christianity over against the sacriWce-centred pieties of the ancient public cults. It helped of course that Mithraism in its Roman form was an almost exact contemporary of Christianity. Both originated in the Wrst century ce (Mithraism a decade or so later than its peer), and both grew and Xourished within the same cultural milieu.(p. 54)

        I am going to write a book review on his book. What is your thoughts on Beck?

        Yours
        Prayson

        • in the same piece it states that the name mithras was from well before christ, so his assumption that christianity came first is just blatantly false and contradictory with his own words. it also states that christians went out of their way to destroy mithraism and its symbols. like several times in history, where christians and other religions destroy proof and substitute it with their own version. so its not strange that there isnt much left to prove you wrong i guess. except the incongruent reasonings the christians used to explain this whole thing. also, the suggested occurence of mithraism and christianity together does not imply mithraism was copied from christianity, in fact it points to the opposite direction. mithraism was already in decline as the official religion but still the christians, with all their forgiveness and love felt the need to prosecure, destroy and irradicate the competition. how can a religion be in decline and still be later than its competitor that is just emerging? it cant because it was first. and having compeditors in any power racket like religion is dangerous. clearly they felt threatened by something. my guess and that of most sensible thinking people is that the thing that threatened them is the truth about the origin of christianity. so how does one negate such a threat? by assimilating its core tenets. just like the romans did with greek gods for instance. so thats what the early christians did, they took large chunks of mithraist beliefs and other usefull stuff and incorporated it in their own religion to make their ranks grow. muslims did that with vedic stuff. of course, they werent smart enough to realise that the one building they left standing ,the Kaaba in Mekka, has an exact copy of it in Delhi, India, which gives away the lie they tell about the Kaaba being of Arabic origin. same method, other religion. same geographical region pretty much, too. on the inner wall of the Kaaba the name of the ruler that had the thing erected originally is still engraved. it says Vikramaditya. noone can destroy all proof my friend. id also like to point out that early christianity has nothing to do with the watered down version thats being peddled these days. early christianity was OLD testament, remember? my thoughts on beck are similar to his collegues: i take it with a good pinch of salt, since i already shot a hole in the small piece you posted here. id like to read the whole thing to see if its just a weak spot in his reasoning here of if the whole book contains holes like this one. and its funny how you ommit the critisizm his research has gotten. im sorry but i really grow tired of this discussion. you just copy paste and hardly talk about your own conclusions and reasonings. and i dont feel like that is bringing me anything new or useful. sofar ive negated all your arguments. you have no proof at all for your premises. have a great festive season.

          • Thank you Prezzy.

            You are correct. Mithraism came long before Christianity. But the teaching that seemly resemble Christianity were not in its routes. They came when Christianity was also on scene. It is that reason that Roger thinks that Christianity was the paradigm of the evolving doctrines of Mithraism.

            You also have to remember that Christianity was a sect emerging from Judaism 🙂

            I believe you can buy it as Kindle version. It is ca. 350 pages and well written

            Yours,
            Prayson

  3. btw i really dont get why you wont accept the simple premise that that which comes before the latter can never be a copy from that latter. it was there before the original? thats just fysically impossible.

  4. hahaha prayson at it again huh. still on that train of erroneous thought. lemme explain: the burden of proof IS on YOU. YOU make the premise that god exists and that the bible is his word, instead of asking jay for a manuscript you know probably doesnt exist anymore or is stolen and hidden in the vatican, you should provide us first with the original bible, the very first one, the word of god. not the disciples word, not justin martyr, but GOD. the thing is, you cant. you just keep asserting your correctnes on the premise that theres no fysical evidence of the contrary, thereby carefully omitting the fact that you dont have the original word of god either. so untill you can prove that god exists and the bible is really his unchanged authentic word, you need to stop this. anthony gets it. i was just really surprised to again find a reply mail from this thread. and eric: seriously?! you do realise that its difficult for christianity to influence or inspire copycats that were around way earlier than christianity? unless they had a damn time machine of course. so: what if it isnt true? you just showed everyone the characteristic way of thinking christians have when it comes to critical thinking. you dont even factor in that possibility. in the middle ages they used to “solve” issues like that by inteviewing the oldest living person connected to a certain event, like the rentdisputes monasteries had in the middle ages. and this person would testify that “it had always been like that, since memory recorded it” . back then that was considered truth. nowadays, its called bearing witness, but not truth by a LONG shot. one can bear FALSE witness as well, afterall…. these days, we know PROOF means irrefuteable. and as another poster mentioned: a great deal of what christianity tells us, in the bible and from sermons etc, is refuted by science, logic, historic research or just common sense. also, the orange peel analogy is so warped i dont even know where to begin: lets start by saying we know oranges exist because we all seen them and can point them out, touch them and show them to eachother, etc. they exist. if you say they dont, ill just throw one in your face and ask you again…..and second we all know that the thing has a peel. because we all bit into an orange without peeling and know it tastes far less good than when you take the peel off. so i think youre doing the same thing when applied to religion then? well, you cant. first youd have to prove god exists, which you cant. you cant show god to me. so you have no proof of his existence. and then you have to prove the bible is his word, (ie that the orange actually has a peel). which you cant either. in fact, theres not even proof, just clues and mentions of it, that the bible is even connected to god as the one whos words it contains. very unlike the peel that doesnt exist without first having been peeled off of the: yup. ORANGE. now, the thing is: i dont care either way. everyone is entitled to believe in what they want. BUT: it becomes a different matter when you try to make your beliefs and convictions look like facts. which is what prayson does, and many other believers as well. it doesnt give religious people the right to block the choices of life that other thinking humans make. and to end, for anthony: your last paragraph pretty much wraps it up. if its true or not shouldnt even be the point: even if it is, its no excuse to disallow a person his own convictions and beliefs. dont make others bend the same way just because you think theyre wrong and youre right. after all, youll never know for SURE. i on the other hand dont HAVE TO be sure. gods existence isnt an issue for me: it is however a big for you and anyone trying to derive some autority from it.

    • Thank you Prezzy.

      Project Skeptics, run by atheists and agnostics, did a brilliant work on this topic and many other on the same genre http://conspiracies.skepticproject.com/

      It is awesome to see atheists commending others not to use copycat theory for it makes atheism looks bad. Prezzy, You do not have to accept my take on this topic, but I hope you could read and ponder what others who share your worldview think of copycat theory.

      Thank you for your kindness and I am always honored by your visits Prezzy.

      Yours,
      Prayson

  5. It’s so hilarious when a religious person attempts to use logic and reasoning to discuss anything theology related. What a useless exchange between you two. Thank christ America is catching up to the rest of the 1st world and religion is on it’s way out. I hate the internet because of you.

  6. Pingback: Why is Christmas on the 25th of December? | The Culture of the Bible

  7. Wow, the banter between you, Prayson, and Jay is probably one of the longest I’ve ever seen, time wise and post length wise. You guys have been at it since last April. Stunning.

    Anyway, I feel bad for only recently finding your blog, I may have helped put this discussion to bed a year ago. Your OP is fantastic, though I haven’t been able to read it fully yet. My response when someone pits Christianity against various ancient myths and discover “incriminating” coincidences is very simple: If the story of Jesus Christ is true then it has been true throughout the ages. It would be a miracle if the story didn’t leak out in the conscious of other civilizations (are we not all of the same Creator God?). For me, it would be odd if there were not other “Mother-Child” cults, etc, etc., popping up throughout the generations.

    Truly, if the Christian story is real then its the only story that matters and, like any good novel, there’s bound to be copy cats. An analogy I like is that of an orange. Imagine that you went shopping and returned home to find orange peals in all of your bags. Only a fool would say that based on the evidence there is no such thing as an orange. The fact that there are similar stories throughout history is evidence that there is something real about it, something the stories are shadowing, pre-figuring, etc. Digging up parallels in various cults and paganism only helps validate the story.

    • Your orange analogy is embarrassing. A recurring theme throughout the bible suggests that other theistic beliefs of that time and prior are sinful, unjust, incorrect etc. One cannot be a true Christian and argue that similar stories throughout history are proof of Christ, as they must also believe those stories are false. Furthermore, if they were to conflictingly accept this theory, they would also have to ignore thousands of correlating myths of the same sources. Also, the anti-theistic viewpoint exists simply because the mythology they compare Christ to is considered to be just that;Mythology. This could not be used to sway a non-believer as their entire argument is predicated on the initial stories being inherently false.

      I acknowledge Christianity and the Bible to be riddled with primitive morality, and undeniably false statements. However, your rationale can be refuted by basic rhetorical concepts. It contradicts itself entirely.

  8. Hey Prayson
    How are you doing?Have you learned anything yet?I am going to send you a copy paste from a christian site that shows they have done a better research than you.It is mostly about the virgin birth but the part i want you to notice is that they agree with me and name a bunch of before christianity names of sun gods claimed to have had virgin births,crucifixtions e.t.c.just like you and other apologetics refuse to believe and therefore state your false claims on the internet.Christianity no doubt whatsoever copied from paganism.
    Paste: Virgin Birth myths

    Those who dispute the Virgin birth draw attention to such writings as Livy, a famous Roman historian and say that the Virgin Birth may have been copied from a Roman fable: He wrote a popular book on the history of Rome that was widely circulated in the first decades of the 1st century. In it, he explained that Mars, the Roman God of war, fathered twins Romulus and Remus, the original founders of the city of Rome. Their mother was Silvia, a Vestal Virgin. Hence it is suggested that Christian groups may have slightly modified this fable and adopted it as their own, in an attempt to show that Jesus was a person of very great importance — an individual at least as important as the founders of Rome.

    Others suggest that the virgin birth may have been copied from another religion History records that: Buddha was born of the virgin Maya after the Holy Ghost descended upon her. The Egyptian God Horus was born of the virgin Isis; as an infant, he was visited by three kings. A Roman savior Quirrnus was born of a virgin. In Tibet, Indra was born of a virgin. He ascended into heaven after death. The Greek deity Adonis was born of the virgin Myrrha, many centuries before the birth of Jesus. He was born “at Bethlehem, in the same sacred cave that Christians later claimed as the birthplace of Jesus.” In Persia, the god Mithra was born of a virgin on DEC-25. An alternate myth is that he emerged from a rock. Also in Persia, Zoroaster was also born of a virgin. In India, the god Krishna was born of the virgin Devaki.

    Virgin births were claimed for many Egyptian pharaohs, Greek emperors and for Alexander the Great of Greece. The mythological figures: Hercules, Osiris, Bacchus, Mithra, Hermes, Prometheus, Perseus and Horus share a number of factors. All were believed to have: been male, lived in pre-Christian times, had a god for a father, human virgin for a mother, had their birth announced by a heavenly display, had their birth announced by celestial music, been born about DEC-25, had an attempt on their life by a tyrant while they were still an infant met with a violent death, rose again from the dead. Almost all were believed to have: been visited by “wise men” during infancy and fasted for 40 days as an adult.

    The Virgin Birth and the Hebrew Scriptures

    Throughout the Old Testament, we hear of the very unusual births of Ishmael, Isaac, Samson and Samuel. Usually prior to the birth, an angel appears to an individual; the latter is afraid; the message of an upcoming birth is given; objections are raised; and a sign is given. It has been suggested that Matthew and Luke could have replicated the essence of these stories, and added a virgin birth as proof that Jesus’ birth was not only unusual, but was a miracle. This would establish Jesus at a much higher status than the four famous figures from the Hebrew Scriptures. Without a miraculous birth, Jesus might have been considered to be lower in stature to those heroes from the Hebrew Scriptures.

    The virgin birth story was an honest mistake

    In the Gospel of Matthew there is a reference to Jesus’ birth from Isaiah 7:14. This has since become a famous passage; it is often recited at Christmas time. Matthew used it as a method of showing that prophecies in the Hebrew Testament were fulfilled in Jesus’ life. As it happens, the Greek translators had made a mistake. When they were translating the Hebrew writings into the Greek Septuagint and similar translations, they converted the Hebrew word “almah” as the Greek equivalent of our English word for virgin. “Almah” appears 9 other times in the Hebrew Scriptures; in each case it means “young woman”. When the scriptures referred to a virgin (and they do over 50 times) they always used the Hebrew word “betulah”. So, Isaiah appears to have referred to a young woman becoming pregnant (a rather ordinary event).

    Some English translations of the text are accurate to the original Hebrew:

    Revised English Bible: “…a young woman is with child…”
    Revised Standard Version: “…a young woman shall conceive…”
    James Moffatt Translation: “…a young woman with child…”
    New Revised Standard Version: “…the young woman is with child…”
    Revised Standard Version: “…a young woman shall conceive…”

    Moreover the birth being discussed in Isaiah 7:14 appears to be unrelated to Jesus. It describes the Syro-Ephraimite invasion of Judah and the siege of Jerusalem about 735 BC. The child that was born to the young woman at the time was a sign from God that the siege would be lifted and that Jerusalem would continue as before. The prophecy was presumably completely fulfilled more than 700 years before the birth of Jesus. For King Ahaz circa 735 BC, ‘the birth of the Messiah some seven hundred years later would have been of little consolation!’

  9. Hi Prayson ,
    I notice when things fit your theory it is o.k.for you to quote them but if anyone else uses such they are wrong.Above in your answer to Ali is again your double standard.You say the question is (quote)are those added relations historically correct)(Unquote .)You don’t even have any reliable history that the 4 gospel Jesus ever existed but yet you blow smoke about him as if it’s a historical fact.I find and many other people find that your claims are easily proved FALSE.I suggest you realize what your last sentence above really says.
    Paste from you above:When someone offer you relations, ask for the original source, and read it for yourself.
    From me>>Do you have an original source in the N.T.?Of course you don’t the earliest N.T.manuscripts are from the mid 300 A.D.’s or over 200 years after they were supposedly writen.Actually if christianity had not tried to pre-date when the 4 gospels were writen those manuscripts may be the originals.Stop your double standard theories.
    Now a few comments about your article at the top where you got all this started from.And here is another double standard from you,you say (quote)Plutarch says Mithra was born on the shores of a river.(unquote).You quote Plutarch as telling the truth but when i quoted Plutarch as saying Mithraism was brought to the Roman Empire about 80 B.C.by the Roman soldiers you blew it off as if it were nothing.Again it is showed by what Plutarch said that Mithraism was in the Roman Empire long before christianity was,so who would be the one doing the copying?Lets do a little more about who copied who,Paul calls Jesus the Rock,the first stories about Jesus claimed he was born in a cave(Rock)since there is very little history about MITHRA thanks to christianity destroying every thing they could about him,but him being born out of a rock is not necassarily the truth,he could have been born in a cave and come out the rock cave just like Jesus was first claimed born in a cave.
    Also here is more of your double standard you told me not to quote German theories about the copy-cat they claimed in the 18th.century but then in your begining article above you quote at least 2 times what a German wrote.See it’s o.k.when it fits your theory,you have had dozens of double standards in your supposed answes to me.Historians now say the book of 2 Peter was not writern by the apostle Peter,that is even some biblically biased scholars so 2 Pet.1:16-18 is worthless in proving a historical Jesus or for you to quote “We did not follow cleverly devised myths”the writer is writing myths or heresay from earlier christian claims.Your 7 reasons in the above article are not worth answering as for as proving christianity did not copy Mithra and other ancient sun gods.You have been beat like a step child on your theory,but you just can’t figure it out,
    Jay Osborne

    • It is very possible Ali, but the question is are those added relations historically correct. The more I read the relations added the more I discover that they are either false or post-Christianity. When someone offer you relations, ask for the original source, and read it for yourself.

  10. I thought you might be interested in the real story on the passage by Harari about Attis being crucified. It is another example of Zeitgeist/Peter Joseph/ Acharya S quackery and it is pretty funny. Harari did in fact say that but he was not speaking of the ancient mythology and probably never bothered to check it since it was not relevant. What he was speaking about was the William Butler Yeats poem “Vacillation” where the narrator is describing the interplay as Christianity began to replace paganism. In the second stanza of the poem, Yeats wrote:

    “A tree there is that from its topmost bough
    Is half all glittering flame and half all green
    Abounding foliage moistened with the dew;
    And half is half and yet is all the scene;
    And half and half consume what they renew,
    And he that Attis’ image hangs between
    That staring fury and the blind lush leaf
    May know not what he knows, but knows not grief”

    You can see some sort of crucifixion imagery in there and, given the time period (early to mid 20th century), Yeats was probably influenced by the whoe Frazer “dying and rising gods” school. But that is what Harari was talking about and not ancient mythology. In fact, on the page the dynamic duo cited, he wrote:

    “The oneness of trunk, leaf, and blosson, for example, that would have appealed to Goethe, would find itself replaced by the much less reassuring Tree of Life from the Mabinogion that appears in the poem “Vacillation,” in which the fiery blosson and earthly leaf are held together, as well as apart, by the crucified and castrated Attis, of whose body it ca hardly be said that ‘it is not bruised to pleasure soul.’ ”

    So there you have it. Harari was doing literary criticism on a Yeats poem from the 20th century. Whether Attis was crucified or not in that poem has no real relevance on first century Christianity. How bad can their “scholarship” get?

  11. Hi Jay:

    I have a more personal question for you. I have read your small biography, and yes you seemed to have been a very hard working believer!

    I want to ask you the following:

    Let’s pretend the gospels are true, and we know with very high probability that they are indeed true. Please just play along the thought…

    How would you relate to the gospels and God?, and what would you think of the Christian perception or worldview grounded in Jesus as the incarnation of God?

    And if you dislike it the dogma of Christianity, what would you prefer?

    Hope you will answer my questions :).

    If you do not like to answer here, you can write me on my mail: d.sk@live.dk

    Kind Regards
    Daniel

  12. I am not trying to prove anything.I even said it is un-provable,as far as I know. I have no problem with that because of the witness that came to live inside of me the second that I believed.
    I have read some translations from cuneiform clay tablets from the Sumerian civilization. I am sure not as much as you have. I still see very little resemblance.I take the bible as a whole. Very vast,lengthy,broad,and covering a multitude of subjects over a long span of time.IMO still as relevant today,and don’t get hung up on {what is to me} the little things.
    In my personal opinion, the whole fits together perfectly. Not because someone told me to think that,that is just how it hits me.The idea that that uniformity {as per my instincts},that much truth,wisdom,goodness,things that to me have been the only 100% solid,perfect,un- failing truth,could have been concocted, or is some conspiracy , would take more faith from me.
    You have been clear,what you believe. And I know many more who believe just as you.

    The arc was not built as something to worship. Very different from an idol or worship of the elements, or the polytheism that those ancient cultures were engulfed.

    The popular historian Will Durant, himself not a Christian, wrote concerning Christ’s historical validity, “The denial of that existence seems never to have occurred even to the bitterest gentile or Jewish opponents of nascent Christianity” (Durant, The Story of Civilization, vol. 3, p. 555). And again, “That a few simple men should in one generation have invented so powerful and appealing a personality, so lofty an ethic and so inspiring a vision of human brotherhood, would be a miracle far more incredible than any recorded in the Gospels” (Ibid., p. 557).

    No other historical literature has been so carefully preserved and historically confirmed.

    The hebrews ushered in a new way. But that’s how I see it. You see it your way. I mine. I have taken a leap of faith and am convinced, you have taken a leap of faith, even though you don’t see it that way {a leap of faith}, and are convinced.

    PS it just occurred to me: if someone from Babylon,Egypt,or wherever knew thousands of years before Abraham of the one true living God who comes to live in heart and mind through faith, and influenced the whole hebrew scriptures from Gen. to Rev., to me is irrelevant and changes nothing. But makes me wonder,why then would they abandon the Living God.
    Answer is-they wouldn’t. They were mainly into crocodiles,the sUn,stars,idols, statues,etc.
    You believe bible is legend and myth, I don’t. We can leave it as that.

    • Prayson,this is not a reply to Joe Torse,this concerns your illogical thinking (actually non-thinking)claims about what Justin Martyr actually says,which beyond the shadow of a doubt shows and he mentions several earlier than christianity sun gods which show plainly christianity copied from paganism not the other way around.Why do apologetics such as yourself lie and twist what Justin actually said?Anyone not biblically mind controlled reading Justin’s writings can see it is transparent as the nose on your face that there were sun god virgin births,crucified and resurrected from the dead,ascending to heaven long before christianity,because Justin planly says the devils got there first and read it from the O.T.prophets,that was his excuse of why they were first.I ran into another site on the internet on this subject,listen and read their conclussions that anyone but an apologetic can see plainly Jesus is nothing but copied,adopted,counterfeited and stolen from paganism.

      Copy & Paste:
      Zandrax

      November 22nd 2007, 10:20 PM

      I finally started reading some Justin Martyr. The first quote comes from “First Apology”, which looks to be a response to the persecution of Christians. It is a letter directed to the high ups in Rome basically saying that Christians are good people who are innocent of the vile allegations put against them. He also details how they believe Jesus to be the savior, and that he was prophesied by Abraham and Moses.

      Here is where it gets interesting.

      It is JUSTIN HIMSELF who starts bringing up the similarities between the Hebrew prophecies and some of the pagan gods.

      Here is the quote in more detailed, and paraphrased a bit.

      CHAPTER XXI — ANALOGIES TO THE HISTORY OF CHRIST.

      And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter. For you know how many sons your esteemed writers ascribed to Jupiter: Mercury, the interpreting word and teacher of all; AEsculapius, who, though he was a great physician, was struck by a thunderbolt, and so ascended to heaven; and Bacchus too, after he had been torn limb from limb; and Hercules, when he had committed himself to the flames to escape his toils; and the sons of Leda, and Dioscuri; and Perseus, son of Danae; and Bellerophon, who, though sprung from mortals, rose to heaven on the horse Pegasus. For what shall I say of Ariadne, and those who, like her, have been declared to be set among the stars? And what of the emperors who die among yourselves, whom you deem worthy of deification, and in whose behalf you produce some one who swears he has seen the burning Caesar rise to heaven from the funeral pyre? And what kind of deeds are recorded of each of these reputed sons of Jupiter, it is needless to tell to those who already know. This only shall be said, that they are written for the advantage and encouragement of youthful scholars; for all reckon it an honourable thing to imitate the gods. But far be such a thought concerning the gods from every well-conditioned soul, as to believe that Jupiter himself, the governor and creator of all things, was both a parricide and the son of a parricide, and that being overcome by the love of base and shameful pleasures, he came in to Ganymede and those many women whom he had violated and that his sons did like actions. But, as we said above, wicked devils perpetrated these things. And we have learned that those only are deified who have lived near to God in holiness and virtue; and we believe that those who live wickedly and do not repent are punished in everlasting fire.

      He is basically saying that the Roman/Greek gods are inspirations from the “devils” in an attempt to deceive from the original Hebrew prophecies. In short, he’s telling the rulers of Rome that their gods are nothing but false interpretations of Hebrew prophecies.

      From me:A few other emails failed to copy and i can’t save this email while i re-copy and paste,so i will go back and try to re-send them in another email.Statues and artfacts of most of these ancient sun gods Justin mentions above are up to 3,500 years old to say there were no dying and resurrecting Savior sun gods,virgin born,ascending to heaven,crucified and hung on crosses(winter equinox)and Perseus and others listed above ascended to heaven on the horse Pegasus just like Jesus is supposed to return on a white horse in Rev.6:2 & Rev.19:11,you do not have a leg to stand on claiming paganism copied christianity,really christianity copied and is paganism,from the Popes fish hat and other attire and even the rituals are copied from paganism,incl.SUN-DAY,CHRISTS-MASS,EASTER(from Ishtar)Lord’s supper from Mithra and other sun gods.Are apologetics incl.you blind or just want to claim through mind control that your Bible is inerrant,infallible and god inspired?
      JAY

    • More emails,not about Joe Torse:
      Copy and Paste:

      eklypised

      November 19th 2007, 04:51 PM

      What was he saying here? Did he not accept the virgin birth because he thought it was copied from pagans?

      Justin Martyr – 100-165 AD
      One of the first christian historians and defenders wrote:
      “When we say that he, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was produced without sexual union, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven WE PROFOUND NOTHING DIFFERENT from what you believe regarding the sons of {the god} Jupiter.”
      In a different writing, Justin Martyr said:
      “He was born of a virgin, ACCEPT THIS IN COMMON with what you believe of [The god} Perseus.”
      Its obvious that Justin, and other early christians new how similar christianity was to the Pagen religions. However Justin had a solution. As far as he was concerned,the devil did it:
      “The DEVILS…Craftily feigned that Minerva was The Daughter of Jupiter not by sexual union.”
      The devil had the foresight to come before christ, and create his characteristics in the pagan world

      ——————————————————————————–

      Abykale

      November 19th 2007, 06:25 PM

      . . . and? Your point?

      ——————————————————————————–

      Lightknight

      November 19th 2007, 09:41 PM

      What was he saying here? Did he not accept the virgin birth because he thought it was copied from pagans?

      Justin Martyr – 100-165 AD
      One of the first christian historians and defenders wrote:
      “When we say that he, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was produced without sexual union, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven WE PROFOUND NOTHING DIFFERENT from what you believe regarding the sons of {the god} Jupiter.”
      In a different writing, Justin Martyr said:
      “He was born of a virgin, ACCEPT THIS IN COMMON with what you believe of [The god} Perseus.”
      Its obvious that Justin, and other early christians new how similar christianity was to the Pagen religions. However Justin had a solution. As far as he was concerned,the devil did it:
      “The DEVILS…Craftily feigned that Minerva was The Daughter of Jupiter not by sexual union.”
      The devil had the foresight to come before christ, and create his characteristics in the pagan worldDoes your initial question still stand or did you answer it yourself with the last paragraph?

      The early Christians did a lot to apologize Christianity to the pagan community. One way to reach out to the Pagans was to show similarities between the religions in order to make them less “offensive” from the start. For the same reason that it is easier for a Christian to believe another Christian who adheres to a different doctrine than for a Christian to believe a Muslim about their take on God, so is it easier for a pagan to consider a religion that is somewhat familiar. I really wish you had cited the works you were quoting so that I could easily find the context and expand on what I am about to say, but I’ll have to settle for what I found on my own.

      Justin Martryr, Dialogue with Trypho, Ch. LXIX discusses the concept that the devils, knowing the prophecy of Isaiah and others, produced false messiahs early in pagan culture. In chapter LXVI (a few chapters before) of the same book Justin proves the virgin birth clearly. It is then that Trypho counters with the fact that the concept already existed.

      So Justin’s overall point is that yes, the virgin birth is found in pagan religions before Christ, but that the concept of Jesus’ virgin birth is found in the book of the Prophets numerous centuries before the pagan beliefs surfaced. It was therefore “sly” of the devils to act on those prophecies on their own to produce false Christ-types early. But it is absolutely clear that Justin did adhere to the virgin birth (again, he proves it in Chapter LXVI).

      ——————————————————————————–

      Jezz

      November 21st 2007, 07:25 AM

      What was he saying here? Did he not accept the virgin birth because he thought it was copied from pagans?
      St Justin did believe in the Virgin birth – you have it a little backwards; he doesn’t claim that it was copied from the pagans, but the other way around.

      Remember that this was an apology. This is an apology (for Lightknight’s reference: they come from the First Apology). He was defending the Christian faith (and specifically in this case, the Virgin birth). The problem was that the pagans of the time laughed at Christianity and thought it was a stupid religion. One of the reasons that they laughed at it was because of the Virgin birth of Christ (they just assumed that St Mary had committed fornication). St Justin’s answer to them was basically this: “What are you laughing at us for? You believe something very similar, which was probably even copied from us! If we’re foolish for believing it, then so are you…”

      ——————————————————————————–

      Zandrax

      November 21st 2007, 08:37 PM

      Forgive me for being a little behind in my knowledge here, as I never actually have sat down and read Justin’s stuff cover to cover, but I also recall a Dionysus quote I believe from First Apology 54. I think this goes along with what many Jesus Mythers use to try to say that Christians copied Pagans.

        • Prayson,do you really think what you sent on Dec.20th.and repeated in this email actually proves that Justin was saying paganism copied off of christianity?Any logical thinking in the simplest form knows that comment proves exactly nothing.This is just another apologetic twisting ancient writings to fit your lame non-thinking theory.You quoted this line from Justin.(Quote)If we alone afford proof of what we assert,why are we unjustly hated more than all others.(Unquote).First Justin mentions nothing for proof and second who are the others he mentions?The others would be Trypho and other pagans.It is pure total ignorance to try and claim that this proves paganism did the copying.First he he is showing the devils in advance of Christ counterfeited from what the prophets wrote,by mentioning the devils got it from the prophets and the O.T.prophets had writen it hundreds of years before the Jesus tale and christianity,it is obvious who copied who.
          Second he mentions the names of some ancient sun gods who we know were long before christianity and says they had crucifixtions,resurrections from the dead,born of virgins,ascended to heaven e.t.c.Were i you and other lying apologetics i’d be ashamed to claim such obvious lies and decieve others.Justin’s writings prove the documents you want me to send are right there in Justin’s writings and ancient statues and artifacts of sun gods at least 1500 years before christianity.Even though the Sumerians had these same Jesus type tales about sun gods now dug up on cunciform clay tablets,the Bible picks up the same tales begining with Nimrod who died and his wife Semarmis claimed he came back from the dead in the form of Tammuz as an evergreen tree(Begining of what later was called CHRISTS-MASS) the evergreen tree symbolized ever living(Immortal Soul lie)because the evergreen does not die in the winter,Remember Abraham was from Ur a Sumerian city,proving the Bible tales originated from the Sumerian civilization.
          You Prayson have not even begun to dig out the long sordid biblical tales.If you had anything more than biblical mind control,biblical brainwashing and blind faith that evidently your wife began instilling in you,then you could easily see with study that Jesus is merely another sun god tale copied from earlier sun god legends,myths,fables and tales,but i give you patience since your Jesus has not returned in 2000 years and will not return except when the sun comes up each morning.
          JAY

          • Dear Jay,

            If you wish for us to discuss Justin Martyr, then I do invite you to engage with the December 20, 2011 at 13:43 comment I made. Show how am “I twisting ancient writings to fit [my] lame non-thinking theory”?

            I argued that your Copy-Cat apologist, who you copy-pasted from, takes Martyr’s passages out of context. You do not have to accept a “biblical-brinwashed-blinded-controlled mind” like me, refutation 🙂 , but I hope you will accept or listen to non-Christian, atheist and skeptics refuting your position: Skeptic Project.

            Atheist philosopher, Ruse, warned: “People forget that it is possible to be intensely religious in the entire absence of theological belief.” (Michael Ruse, Darwin and Design, p. 335). Jay, I do love you and pray that you do not forget that we can all be religious in our beliefs, both you believing that Christianity is a copy and I believing the contrary. We should try not to call each other names, my dear Jay, but give reasons/arguments to why we believe what we believe, in a gentle, respectable and loving way.

            On January 6th I wrote an article: Justin Martyr And Zeitgeist’s Apologists to which I went deeper answering your question. Here is a sneak pick:

            One of my favorite blog follower, Jay Osborne, a copy-cat-theorist apologist who admitted that its impossible to produce that kind of earlier evidences “at least right now but it may be found later on”, presented the First Apology of Justin Martyr as an evidence that Christianity copied from other pagan dying and rising gods.

            May God lead you to himself, Jay, when time is right.

            In Christ,
            Prayson

          • Neither of the links you sent in 2 emails work to connect me to a Dec.20th.2011 you claim to have sent me.I also went through all the comments and emails we sent back and forth on your site and neither is there a Dec.20th.post on there.So evidently you have screwed up again.
            JAY

          • Well i can tell you your links do not work and so i went to your blog and can’t get anything there either.If you emailed that Dec.20th.email to me it should be on the comments page but it is not.You also didn’t send me the post by Daniel Sidelmann even though it was addressed to me,I found it myself when I made another post on Justin Martyr and answered him through his private email account.You never sent me the Dec.20th.one that you claimed you sent and claimed it refuted my Justin Martyr sendings.
            That doesn’t matter it would just start another argument and i am perfectly able to understand what Justin said without your ramblings and twisting of what he said.You even twist the fact that Mithraism began in the Roman Empire around 70 B.C.which shows Mithra was there before christianity.So that and what Justin said proves you a liar about paganism copying christianity.Plus the fact that a catholic church in Italy sits on top of a Mithra worship cavern showing which was first.None of your ramblings to me which has lasted almost a year have shown any logical thinking and has proved ZERO on your apologetic weird theory.
            JAY

  13. Jay, 1 Corinthians 12:3 “no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit”.Which ancient myth did that come from? The bible from Genesis to Revelation does not even resemble ancient mythology {unless one changes the facts,which is how they orchestrate a resemblance}. And from Genesis to Revelation,believers in the One true God are constantly exhorted: to have no other gods, not to follow empty dead myths and religions of the time, worship idols, the elements {sun} etc. Granted, that much later in the church,they got back into weird stuff like worshiping saints,Mary,forbidding marriage of priests etc. and other strange things that are contrary to the bible.
    The power of God is alive and well. Like David I can honestly say if I were to try and count all the wonderful things God has done and been for me, they would be too numerous to count.Thats not even counting all of the lives{other than my own} I’ve seen do an about face
    after encountering God’s power through faith in His Son.Not: fantasy,positive thinking,mind control,psychology,etc. but the invisible, un-provable, all powerful work of his spirit.
    Apologies to Prayson for getting off-topic.
    What I mean by no one can prove is, unless you see Jesus with your own eyes. No pictures or video,which even if there were,they can be altered as well.
    So I put back to you,if you would spend as much time reading the bible as reading what others say about the bible, you would have a better chance,as you think I would be better off reading what people say about the bible than reading the bible itself.
    I did read all posts between yourself and Prayson,that’s why my first post so harsh.
    In reading I noticed at the start civility and then you starting to call him a liar among other put downs. And the discussion turned in my view to you ranting while he remained calm and gracious.
    Faith will still always be key. Even as most will hate and laugh at that fact, and therefore will miss out, but “without faith it is impossible to please God” {which myth did that come from}

    • Joe,
      Quoting scripture such as 1 Cor.13:3 or any other scripture does nothing to prove a historical Jesus or the copy-cat theory.When i said your Bible is based on myths Genesis to Revelation that does not mean every word and every verse.The biblical creation story,Noah’s claimed flood,Adam and Eve,Tower of Babel,the Serpent or Dragon,a Garden similar to Eden,a similar Abraham all these tales have been dug up on cunciform clay tablets from the Sumerian civilization which dates at least 1200 years before the Bible was even started to be writen and 1200 years before there was ever a tribe of Hebrews or nation of Hebrew Israelites.So the Israelites merely copied into the Bible myths, fables and tales from 1200 years before they ever existed.
      The book of Revelation or parts of it have been found which was writen 4000 years ago,so it certainly was not writen by John 2000 years ago.Your whole Bible is writen by copying off of other ancient writings except bits and pieces which were added by the newer,later biblical writers.Your Bible does resemble ancient mythology,you just haven’t researched or investigated your belief enough.You say the Bible says have no other God’s but the one claimed true god,it also says in EX.20:3 the second commandment that shall not make any graven image,or any likeness,or anything that is in heaven above,or that is in the earth beneath,or that is in the water under the earth.But begining just 5 chapters later in EX.chap 25 he tells them to break that commandment by building the Ark of the Covenant,which was made out of things in the earth and built to look like things supposedly in heaven.Which broke the earlier second commandment.
      So just because it says he is the only god to worship means nothing,if you research your Bible well you will see this supposed god broke every one of his own commandments or commanded the Israelites to break them later on.What wonderful things have happened to you to make you think god did it?That’s what you claim.Has god ever caused an amputated arm or leg to grow back on the body,have you been raised from the dead?Have you been healed of a disease,or are you like Benny Hinn just make claims of healing?Which later has been found out to be a hoax and a lie.You say maybe i should read the Bible more instead of what others say,i’ll bet your Bible does not have writings or notes on every page writen by me directing me to other parts of the Bible that cover the same subject.That’s how i gradually found it’s contradictions,discrepancies and lies.
      I would bet you and i and another person could go into a room alone and let the third person mention just a couple of words out of any biblical subject and from memory i can find that scripture before you can,i know your Bible well,i have 9 different translations,which have parts the translators can not even agree how to translate it,so how in the world can christianity claim the Bible is the inerrant,infallible,god inspired word of god?The Bible was writen by men and god didn’t create us in his image man created god and the Bible in man’s image,like he has 2 legs,2 arms,a heart,a head,and all other parts of a man except not saying he has sexual parts.Your god,your Bible was a creation done by men for control over the population,and was not inspired by any god.
      You mention Faith,what is the actual definition of the word faith?Faith is a belief system despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary,your Bible says the same thing IT SAYS faith is a HOPE for something UNSEEN.Have a good day and learn to prove all things and ivestigate and research both sides of your beliefs.
      Jay

  14. Eph. 1:18-23

    18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people,19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength20 he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms,21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come.22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church,23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

    • This whole idea of Christianity copying Mithras & all the others for that matter is such nonsense & a smoke screen for people to feel more comfortable rejecting Christ and avoid submitting to their maker. If you read Mithras and all the others they are hardly similar at all. The vast and living word of God has the power to give life ,they don’t .
      The Word of God is able to regenerate a person from the inside out,put inside of that person a new voice that calls out “father”, that wasn’t their before.And frankly is not of this world but from God himself. The Word of God works with and by the power of God.All the others are only words,myths ,and old wives tales.No one can prove that Christ rose from the dead or even existed 2000 years ago.The power of God proves it to any individual by the regeneration that he gives.
      Thanks Payson for your great ,patient and humble spirit trying to help these embittered Christ-mythers.

      • Hey Joe,
        I don’t know if you have read all the letters to Prayson i have sent for almost one year,but i spent 32 years in christianity before i started my jorney out of it.I tried my best to be a perfect christian using your Bible for a guide.During that time although i prayed 2-3 timnes a day on my knees and more by uttered prayers throughout the day.When i looked back on that honestly after discovering christianity is straight out of paganism i realized not one prayer was ever answered even though some i had prayed i begged with tears running down my cheeks.
        At the time i was in christianity i was mind controlled(programed) to believe every good thing that happened to me came from god and everything bad that happened was from Satan,which was wrong it was merely the ups and downs of life.I never saw all this godly power you like to falsely blow about.If prayers were answered there would be no wars because look how many christians have prayed for peace down through the years.During WW2 christian American mothers were praying for the war to end or to bring their sons home safely,while German mothers were praying to the same god asking the same thing,no prayers were answered millions were slaughtered and peace didn’t come until the atomic bomb was dropped.
        If your god was so powerful and controls the weather as most christians believe,why does he send hurricanes,earthquakes,tornado’s and other disasters killing christians and even destroying their homes and churches?:Your God power you claim is what you have allowed your mind to believe and is not realistic.It’s a fantasy.Neither am i an embittered Christ myther or an embittered person just because i dis-believe in your Jesus,agnostic’s,skeptics,atheist merely require and look for the real honest provable truth refusing to follow blindly by nothing but faith.And that is all christianity has,it’s foundation principles are simply not there,it’s like your Bible says it’s built on sand with no foundation, begining in Genesis and ending in Revelation it is a book built on ancient legends, myths,fables and tales,easily proved once religious blinders are removed from the mind.If you and Prayson would study ancient Mythology as much as you study the Bible you would easily see even the O.T.was copied off of Sumerian,Babylonian and Eygptian Sun God myths,fables and tales which were much earlier than Hebrews(Israelites)were ever a nation,the copy cat idea is easily proved about the O.T.also.Joe you only have one thing in your email about me correct,that is where you say this(quote)No one can prove Christ rose from the dead or even existed 2000 years ago(unquote)Prayson just thinks he can prove it,but he can not,because there is a lot more evidence proving he was never a flesh and blood person than there is that he was.I am not embittered If i believed your god both the O.T.God and Jesus were truth i would humbly submit to his will,but the fact is both are ancient legends,myths,fables and tales.
        JAY

  15. Pingback: Refuting Mithras Myth Parallelism To Christianity, Prayson Daniel | ofcseminary.org

  16. prayson, my post of 30/12 deals directly with your titanic argument and blows it out of the water , and yes: pun is intended. read the first few sentences of that post, then tell me i didnt deal with it. either you didnt read it at all, you dont understand it or you choose to ignore it. i wonder which one it is.
    second: what Justin matryr did was assert what he thought was true, which is not neccesarily THE TRUTH as in FACTUAL. YOU grant him authority, can you tell me why? i dont, and i can tell you why: there was a lot at stake for him. and the other early christian writers. but for the sake of argument lets see where we end up: his argument pretty much says that unless youre a christian you cant judge on what christanity means and that kills the whole discussion. hm, well no, it doesnt as far as i care, because that argument has no value at all. its a non-argumentation and its made on assumed authority, not on facts. again, he thinks that. it saves him from a lot of hassle, as it does for the muslims who use the same argument, and to you now, because i pretty much roasted you and your thinking here. lets see you refute my anti titanic reasoning for a start, since its close to your logical fallacy mantra, at least the form it comes in. to recap: just because someone writes about something that actually happens later than the writing, doesnt make it a prophecy per say now does it? your problem is now to explain how mithraism (being so much older than christanity) could ever have copied christian allegoric imagery from a religion (christianity) that didnt yet exist? 😉

    happy 2012 to you and your loved ones 😀

  17. Prayson, Titanic was not even in your theory at the begining,you keep saying stay on those 2 things when you added Titanic yourself,then you turn around and say we can’t use things similar to prove our points.Neither was Justin Martyr, in the way you started out this debate,i brought that up and all you have done with it is twist & lie about it.The way you wanted this to go was stick completely to Mithra but since christianity tried to destroy all evidence especially of Mithra it has to expand into other pagan sun god customs and beliefs.If you could have stuck to Mithra only and asked for a document before 1 A.D.you knew you could win,however i blew all of your theories to hell not once but dozens of times in my emails.I hate to revert back to insults but i see no other way to say it,if you can’t see with clarity that christianity copied off of paganism in all the things i sent and explained you are dumb,stupid,ignorant and clueless.
    I tell you what let the people decide who is correct start a new thread with all of the emails attached and ask random other people whether you or i are correct,who has the best proof & evidence.I’ll guarantee if you don’t let just christians in only but open minded people and not just disbelievers either i will win at least 8 out of 10.Because your theory is simply worthless and easily disproved.Prezzy and i have not attacked with Strawman theories,you brought up Titanic you brought up other Strawmen that i needed to refute so it is you who brought in Strawmen.It is you who want to stick to the 2 theories you mention above which barely touches on the subject except in your favor.You are a deciever just like christianity has always been.Most people were illeterate up till the turn of 1900 and couldn’t read or research christianity’s claims and so they believed whatever the minister(preacher)or apologetics said,now it’s coming back to bite you on your rear,we have many ways we can research and investigate now.And your lies are catching up to you.
    Prezzy and i are not adding wonderful assertions that do not warrant or are not logically sound,you are doing that because there is no reliable,ZERO evidence or proof that Jesus ever walked on this earth,not even after the 2000 years that christianity has waited for him.And so without his myth it is worthless to discuss who copied who.You are a gluton for punishment your theories have been proved not a sound reliable doctrine.Even your claimed 2 points have been blown to hell several times over.Not by documentation but by common intelligent reasoning.First Thess.5:21 says “Prove all things,hold fast to what is good” i did that it’s not my fault the Bible and christianity failed miserablly.
    Jay

    • Thanks Jay,

      Now we leave to the readers of this comment 🙂 Thanks for your thoughts and super thank you for all your comments.

      May you have a great 2012 Jay.

      In Christ,
      Prayson

  18. Prayson,i completely understood what Prezzy was trying to convey to you,but just like i sent things that were plain as the nose on your face you could not understand them.Just as i said before here is what is wrong with you that causes that,you are biblically mind controlled,biblically brainwashed and blind faith.Through your apologetic training you only have a one track mind,it’s your way or the highway.You can’t think outside the box that you’ve allowed your mind to become boxed in to.Don’t you know all over Rome and all over Greece there are statues,artifacts,drawings they built of all of their pagan sun gods that were worshipped long,long before christianity.
    There are mother and infant statues that are identical to the Mary and baby Jesus statues and drawings that now depict Jesus in Mary’s arms.As i said before yoiur Bible in Jer.10:2-5 shows that before christianity called it Christs-mass the pagans were worshipping the very same thing now worshipped by christianity and over and over your O.T.says do not worship like the heathen,pagans do calling it an abomination.You can change these customs,adopt,copy,counterfeit them to Jesus in vain they are still pagan sun god customs.You can call a Zebra a horse but it’s stripes tells that you are lying.An Easter(now called Easter)sunrise service is told about in Ezek.8:14-17 and called an abomination and says do not do,but christianity has now counterfeited it to Jesus.Your Bible O.T.shows that christianity did the copying off of long before pagan customs,3 are listed above the statues of a mother and baby were done earlier by pagans,but is now called Mary and baby Jesus,Christmas and Easter were done earlier than christianity by pagans,so it is completely ignorant to make the claim that pagans copied off of chrisrtianity.You can twist the word parallels all you want to,that’s what you’ve been taught to do but just like a Zebra can be called a horse but is not,it is an obvious lie that the pagans copied off of christianity.Christianity burned books,burned librarys destroyed pagan artifacts and other pagan things in it’s effort to destroy the connection ,copy,counterfeit of paganism,but enough is left to prove who copied who.Mithraism almost won over christianity as a religion but then The Roman Empire and Roman Catholic church decided to murder pagans and anyone else who would not accept the Jesus tale,they(christianity) murdered millions of people during the Inquisition,The Crusades and even after that down through the ages by burning them at the stake,beheading and other ways they killed them.Christianity survived as a religion over Mithra by enforcing and murdering people,until it finally got to be a tradition to believe the christian tale.
    You can twist ancient writings,twist biblical passages and lie like dogs but the real honest truth is christianity copied everything from pagan sun god worship.Even our days of the week,the months and space rockets are named after pagan sun god names.If the real truth was known paganism won over christianity,because paganism is christianity.Thanks much Prezzy.Prayson whether you realize it or not you have been whipped like a step child,just a saying i wouldn’t whip a step child anymore than i’d whip my own child.But you’ve been beaten many times over Prayson.
    Jay

    • Dear Jay,

      Thank you for your comment. Both you and Prezzy decided to ignore the points I made and attacked Strawman.

      You keep adding wonderful assertions which are without warrant nor logically sound.

      Can you deal with the two points I presented?(Titanic and Justin) Lets drop attack on who I am and deal with what I offered.

      In Christ,
      Prayson

  19. if you cant even see that i pointed out the where, when and how of your faulty logic, even in my last post where i do it point by point, then i advise you do tefrain from further bible research, since you arent able to read what is clearly and fysically there prayson. but to me this is no big change from standard christians as they most if not all seem to have a talent for ignoring things and concepts that are staring them straight in the face. im not going to repost my last mail, if you dont see the point by point takedown in it then judging or even making conclusions about what the writers of the bible or even god meant is clearly beyond YOUR grasp. which makes your postings here funny in stead of offensive. anyway, those that want to learn do. and you clearly do not, which proved my earlier point: you already have reached a conclusion and from there you set out to find proof for your conclusion. so it follows youre not able to do anything even resembling a neutral unbiased study of the bible or any other subject. all your effords are in vain because the basis of your efford is set on a wrong premise, best summed up in Justins assertion that one cant understand christianity unless one is one of them. that my friend is dark age logic.

  20. My dear Prezzy,

    I believe you didn’t grasp what is the crux in our discussion nor understood the two point I presented. Jay gives you are pat on the back 🙂

    Well I believe the last comment you attacked a strawman 🙂 I heard about logic error I made but I am still waiting to be told when, where, and how(the name of the fallacy).

    For now I would just say thank you for both you and blessed 2012. Thanks for a fanatic comments in 2011 and hope to be saying more of you in 2012.

    In Christ,
    Prayson

  21. I just typed you a pretty long email,i was about ready to sign it then the whole just disappeared off my computer.I am thinking your thread is to long,because i had my hands away from the keyboard when it just disappeared,i don’t want to go through all that work again at least not now untill you can give me an idea of what is wrong.Also you said by clicking up at the top of your sendings and i could go to the postings without scroling for 2 or 3 minutes,that’s not so either.Prezzy i had congratulated you for the way you approached all of Prayson’s claims.Prayson can’t figure it out that you were on target because all he can think about is Mithra.Hope this sends i don’t want to make it long.
    Jay

  22. so prayson, youre comparing the bible to a piece of fiction that later had a predictable occurrance in reality, is that the point youre making? like all those people writing stories about global nuclear war, just because they see a reasonable possibility that with all the nukes we have we might get one? i think you would call them prophetic as well when we actually would have a global nuclear war? is george orwell a prophet now just because what he wrote in his books 1984 and animal farm is occurring in our society? to complete the reasoning, the Titanic was advertised as being unsinkable, and many, the writer of the book youre trying to use as proof here for one, had their doubts about that inherently false claim. guess what, his doubts were well founded. no ship is unsinkable. probably even the guy that wrote I Am Legend would be a prophet by your reasoning, since a big global bacterial/viral based near-extermination of mankind is not such a distant possibility. remember AIDS? bang, praysons argument no.1 is down: logic 1- prayson 0.
    second, im dealing with YOUR assertion that mithraism copied from christianity. that is just physically impossible since one cant copy what does not exist yet. its Logically, fysically and reasonably impossible. bring me a copy of a painting i havent painted yet and well talk ok? you even admitted that christians borrowed 25 dec from pagans/mithraism. and you really think the church fathers stopped there? REborn in a CAVE, like the ressurection: after 3 days, in a CAVE. yes, it is both more reasonable and also more logical that christians borrowed from mithraism and other pagan cults/religions. because those things can happen without postulating a time machine as you seem to imply mithraists must have had. in order to copy what not exists yet youd have to travel into the future. and back. we still cant do that even with our technologies today. bang , praysons argument no.2 is down, logic 2- prayson 0.
    third: actually youre saying, “Justin says”, and Justin has no proof either, its just what he thinks is true. just because he wrote it down doesnt make it true, my friend. he has no proof and therefore, neither do you. in fact, because you have taken position the way you have before all the FACTS are known, its impossible for you to see the truth even if it came up to you and shaked your hand. YOU have a stake in it. so you are logically incapable of neutral unbiased research in these matters to begin with. bang, praysons argument no.3 is down, logic 3 – prayson 0.
    forth: you use documents provided by those that have a stake in their perceived legitimacy. that is wholly different from impartial evidence or proof. its like advertising, of course the guys from Apple will say their stuff is the best. and so did the writers of your so-called proof. bang, praysons argument no.4 falls: logic 4 – prayson 0. check and check mate.
    all you do is take a position and keep what supports it, but omit what doesnt support it, or even debunks it. like the church fathers did. thats the opposite of scientific unbiased research. you are in fact trying to reverse engineer a truth that suits YOU. and that is not the truth you claim to seek. nor does it comply with the neutral FACTS as we know them through proper research, translations, etc. also its YOU who keeps using the “logically fallious” mantra without motivating what that logical fallacy is, which AGAIN is very bad english. its a logical FALLACY. dont turn the discussion around, it makes you look silly. what ever qualms you may have with jay is between you too, i just think your/your sources` “evidence/proof” is highly doubtful at best, and non-existent at the worst. so you claiming to know the truth is kind of unfounded i think. if you want to preach, do it in church to those that want to hear it. they will not argue with you. i advise you to read Umberto Eco`s On the limits of interpretation. it will teach you a lot about false logic, false reasoning etc. but i must warn you, you may not like what you find 😉

  23. your so-called proof (which it is not, read up on the difference between hearsay and empirical proof) is non existent. all the circumstantial stuff you bring on is from the bible or people that wrote up their own interpretation of it. thats why its rather funny that now you want us to ignore that. YOU are setting up the prerequisites which we should use to prove you wrong? what planet are you from prayson? i can say this: i believe in the flying spaghetti monster, prove me wrong. same thing. just because you keep ignoring the points we brought to the discussion you think i should feel obliged to adhere to the limitations you put on this discussion? its just that because without doing it, youd have no hope of even coming close to a reasonable and logical argumentation of your case. justin martyr uses the biggest cop out in history: because youre not a christian and i am, i can attest to the truth of the gospel and you cant. seriously, thats the same as islamic circular logic. ill reverse that and say, because you already have your answers ready you are UNABLE to do any neutral scientific research into the truth of these matters. you are biased. so ill repeat myself, for the last time: YOU CANT COPY WHAT DOESNT EXIST YET! FACT! therefore your idea that mithraists copied from christians is both logically and reasonably false. also, chew on this one: how is it that the largest part of the gospel is made up by pauls writing, when he never even met jesus? why is there no mention in any of the greek scholars living around that time about jesus? why is jesus chris actually a combined hebrew/greek name? how come people thought for 100 rds of years that the jews killed jesus when it was actually the romans? wasnt that because the church fathers LIED to their followers? in whos interests, gods? or maybe their own? to maintain their power over people maybe? why if he really was that important, doesnt have anyone have an idea where jesus was buried? why are there so many churches and sects, when all god or jesus has to do is give one irrifutible sign that hes actually real? everyone would follow him then! why are there cross statues with a person hanging from it found in india when jesus never even visited that place? need i go on? your ignorance and refusal to accept that your own position is doubtful at best is really saddening. start using your own mind and reason, and stop echoing the programming you underwent to others as the truth. because its not. if its your own truth, thats fine. but ask yourself this question: why did the mainstream church started lambasting and even attacking gnostics as soon as they popped up? isnt belief a personal matter? so how can choosing to not join their club/church/sect/etc be bad? except if you see that its bad for the pyramid-game called religion, which is different from belief. that game is about power, not love and reverence to the creator (who/what ever he/she/it may be).

    • Thanks Prezzy,

      I am beginning to worry that you either did not read this article or understand it.(Your answer show that you have not).

      You set strawman and attack them well but I believe you are don’t dealing with what is at hand Prezzy.

      The claim were that Christians copied from Mithraism. I asked Jay, who hold to that position and you(since you join in by dropped a link that tries to argue what Jay holds)

      Jay admitted, using his own words that I “ask for an impossible document[copies of documents that support his assertions] at least right now but it may be found later on” and the best he could do is produce Justin Martyr’s first apology to which I used it to show him that that document does the opposite of what he tried to claim.

      Lets got to the crux of this issue. Can you two deal with what I presented namely:

      1. Even if true that there are copies of dying and rising gods in group q, its does not follow that p copied q. Here I used the Titanic example.(Please go back and read)

      2. The documents that I am given that are suppose to support that Christians copied does in deed show the very inverse. As I showed in the article that the documents that we have on Mithraism tells a different story. And Justin’s apology gives support that Christians are the only group that could in fact give proof of their assertions.

      So, why don’t we drop the strawman and dinner together dealing with what I presented. Keep on claiming that my reasons are fallacious, so here is your chance to show where and how.

      In Christ,
      Prayson

  24. Dear Jay And Prezzy,

    I do not understand why you took a route that does not answer the two points I presented. Both of you keep on saying my reason is fallacious but none of you points how or were.

    Prezzy I took Justin Martyr because Jay used him as one supporting his view. My point was to show him that Justin is completely doing the opposite of what Jay wishes as to believe.

    I would ask both of you to deal with the two points I presented. Let us be scholarly appealing to correct thinking(logic and evidences). Remember in this article, we are dealing with the question did Christians copied the virgin birth, crucifixion and resurrection on the third day from Mithraism. We wish to see the evidences and also the logic behind this assertion.

    If you wish for evidences for resurrection of Jesus, or his existence, I have post lots of articles on it.

    1. Contemporary Scholarship and the Historical Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ
    2. Easter: Myth, Hallucination, or History?
    3. Did Josephus Refer to Jesus?
    4. Evidence for the Resurrection of Christ
    5.The Historicity of the Empty Tomb of Jesus
    6. Visions of Jesus: A Critical Assessment of Gerd Lüdemann’s Hallucination Hypothesis

    But this article is not about resurrection or existence of Jesus, or the reliability of the Bible, thus I ignored that as a straw-man. But is Christianity a copy-cat of Mithraism.

    Prezzy, there is no third way. Either Christian copied from Mithraism or not. I said not, and Jay said they did. Truth is objective.Example 2 + 2 = 4 is true regardless of what we believe, feel, or even knew it was so.

    So I would kindly ask you and Jay to focus on the topic at hand.

    In Christ,
    Prayson

  25. Again very good Prezzy,you are approaching the subject from a different point than me,but you show how unreasonable Prayson’s ideology is.And you are right pointing out that he asserts to have proof when actually there is no proof whatsoever for the Jesus story when properly understood.Not one grain, not one iota of proof.Even early church fathers when studied carefully these ancient writings prove there was no flesh and blood earth walking Jesus.Two early church fathers(if you consider Papias as a father)say Jesus didn’t die at approximately 30 years old but died in his bed from old age,that being Irenaeus and Papias.The N.T.and early church father writings are easily proved full of later interpolations and frauds.
    Prayson you tried to just stay on the subject of Mithra,but all of this is to entertwined other things have to be brought out to get to the truth of the subject.I can onlyhope some christians read all this correspondence and begins to make them think and at least some will see the real truth whether you can or not.Believe or not the first 6 presidents of this country and Thomas Paine had nothing good to say about christianity,that’s why they wrote The Separation of church and State,and the god they mentioned in the Constitution & Declaration of Independence was a Deist god,they believed not in the christian Bible god but they believed in a Nature God,Creator God,and Providence God.
    Sincerely,
    Jay

  26. ok prayson, your last post showed me how useless it is to talk with you. you bring up justin martyr as an authority again, and reuse the logic fallacy mantra again, eventho everyone who thinks for themselves can see how wrong you are in using those arguments. theres no talking with you. and your BTW is so childish it makes me laugh, im sorry. you get stuck between between 2 options, when im just suggesting that there is a third. i was trying to make you see that NO ONE has a monopoly on the truth, not atheists, but certainly not christians who quote personal views of those they themselves canonised as being authorities. historical christianity is mostly based on hear-say. thats a FACT. also, ” but Just made it clear that Christian’s alone afford proof of what we assert.” is the most arrogant christian statement ive ever heared and proof of christanity s view that they think they are better than the rest. it was just his opinion. so you really think only christians can know what christianity is about? dont make me laugh. in fact, having concluded something and then going out of your plate trying to find logically sounding explanations is the reverse of honest and unbiased research. especially when you just use logic and not an equal amount of reason and common sense. thats why christian science doesnt really exist, and real scientists laugh about it. so my position does not stand up to biased reversed-logic christian thinking, maybe. but it stands up to reasonable unbiased logic and critical thinking to everyone else. if you state god exists and you cant prove it, you look silly. if you state mithraism copied from christianity eventho christians werent around when mithraism came about, you look silly. it is logically, fysically and reasonably impossible to copy that which doesn exist. ignoring fact that makes you look silly.
    you know perfectly well what i mean my friend. your word-games only show me how twisted and prejudiced your thinking has become since you started reading the ramblings of dead white racist scholars. i hope you wake up some day.
    ow and another thing, the word fallacious you keep using is wrong. its a LOGICAL FALLACY. if you make a mistake like that so easy it explains to me why you dont get other concepts as well. in order to understand one must know what one reads and what it means.
    christianity is a belief, and as such there are no facts to prove christianities claims.

  27. so the church elders commandeered the date huh? just the date, or more traits of pagan/mithraic religions? can you prove it was JUST the date? or can we assume that the church elders didnt stop there, and just neglected to inform their followers? you just proved your own faulty thinking my friend, thnx 😀
    jay my point was to show we have no proof, any of us. and of that fact we have plenty of proof 😉 im not set on proving others wrong in what they personally believe, i am however set on proving others wrong in imposing their personal truth on others, judging others for not joining them in their belief and in showing there are many arguments for keeping belief to yourself and not imposing it on others as the supreme and complete truth.the whole nature of belief is a personal one. its all interpretation. i hope prayson will get to the point where he starts to look for similarities, for common ground, and that way might see that it might be his truth, but hes just human like us and his truth is no more important than others. then these discussions will go towards a common goal, and maybe bear the fruit he and me for one would long to see. also it will take out the ad hominem sting he creates with posting his conclusions as being the truth.
    i wish you both well.

    • Dear Prezzy,

      Thanks for the comment. Remember it is the copy-cater apologist like Jay who want December 25th to be a something true for the birth of Jesus so that they can make a logically wrong connection(even if true) that Christians copied from paganism. I was showing that December 25th is a late add up and useless in Christianity. Christians could have chose any date to celebrate the birth of Christ.

      If you have read the article, it was argued that copy-cat apologist need at-least to get Historical Christianity right 🙂

      Moreover both you and Jay have not engaged in the two point I made:

      1. Even if true that there are records of dying and raising sun gods. The argument is still logically fallacious. Thus your position does not stand critical thinking.

      2. Justin wrote that some of Christian assertions are not alien to Stoics(viz. suffering god, miracle works e.t.c) and Platonic(viz. immortality of soul) but Just made it clear that Christian’s alone afford proof of what we assert.

      BTW: You are imposing your personal truth on others namely its wrong to impose their personal truth on others (If there is something like personal truth in first place) 🙂

      In Christ,
      Prayson

  28. Thanks Prezzy,another good thinking lesson,i think Prayson is licking his wounds,we’ve both showed the impossibility of his thinking.If you are done Prayson goodbye and have a nice life.But try researching the other side along with Bible view point,because it ain’t what you think.
    JAY

  29. lets just say that most of not all scientists agree that logic on its own has little or no value unless coupled with an equal amound of common sense and reason. sadly, you dont seem to fit that category prayson. your logical fallacy mantra isnt washing with me either. its not possible for mithraists to copy something that doesnt exist yet. if you like to search for excuses from the church in the bible to make something like that possible, by all means go ahead, but its just not possible. that basically throws your whole topic out the window. in fact the romans also incorporated local gods in their own pantheon to appease the conquored people that way. christians of early didnt do anything different, and muslims have done the same. actually, nowadays we have groups like urantia and raelists who do use the same method. the thing is, can you see there is a difference between being right and being happy? again, justin quotes from writings containing MEMORIES of those who were reported to have remembered christs words and deeds. no proof. especially from a man living in a time when we as a species were still so un-advanced. so REASON tells me that not all logical sounding explanations, like you offer , are neccesarily true. so i ask you again, how can mithraists copy from christians if there were no christians when mithraism started? isnt it better to look for similarities instead of posting stuff which is just logical and also impossible to prove beyond reasonable doubt?

  30. Hello Prayson,
    Yes,you only have speculations as to when Jesus supposed birth was,but yet we know when important people were born and died clear back in B.C.and the birth and death dates of many people in the first and second century.Again this shows Jesus never existed as a flesh and blood person.Not even Matthew or Luke have any idea when he was supposedly born and give different vague dates 10 years apart.And no Justin nor christianity or apologetics such as yourself can not assert or give any reliable proof Jesus the miracle worker,crucified and resurrected from the dead ever lived.You keep repeating this assertion but for months now you have sent nothing for evidence.Of course you can’t send it because there is none.You know that,that’s why you avoid the subject.
    At first you wouldn’t even admit there were dying and resurrecting sun gods before christianity, but i see now at least you’ve changed your opinion on that.And the argument is not fallacious and you know that also.Is it not now time to start telling the real honest truth.My position does withstand critical thinking,your position does not even bother to think.I have well proved my position on the copy cat theory and it has proved christianity did the copying,the counterfeiting and adopting everything from paganism to christianity.Stand up and be a man and admit it,truth is truth.Jesus is not a diety he is a SUN GOD.
    Jay

  31. There you go again Prayson right out into paganism by wishing Prezzy a Merry Christmas anyone can figure out that Christmas is straight out of paganism.You and most other christians know that the supposed Jesus was not born on Dec.25th.(Christmas)because the shepherds were still in the fields,in fact you have no idea when or what year he was born or crucified,worse yet is 2 of your supposed gospel writers(anonymous writers)Matthew and Luke give dates 10 years apart as to when Jesus was supposedly born.Neither were you told in the N.T.to observe his supposed birth,it only says observe his death.Just like Constantine worshipped Sol Invictus the Invincible Sun and was not babtized as a christian until on his death bed that is the same Sun(not Son)that you worship on SUN-DAY.You just can’t figure it out,you can’t put the puzzel together,i know why because i had 32 years of the same expierence,it’s nothing but biblical mind control,biblical brainwashing and pure blind faith.You say above in another email that only christians(you)alone afford proof of what we assert.That’s just it Prayson you have no proof,i have asked you for first century proof,that is when your N.T.claims Jesus walked the earth.
    Not even Philo who lived from about 10 B.C. UNTIL 45 A.D.who lived all the way through Jesus supposed time and who wrote extensively about the Jewish religion and the area of Galilee,not even he knows one thing about a miracle worker,crucified and resurrected from the dead Jesus.Give up Prayson you are wrong and wasting your time and mine.Your blindness is agravating and preposterous.
    Jay

    • Dear Jay,

      You are so right in saying we have no clue when Jesus was born 🙂 Sadly its only speculations 🙂

      Elisha Coffman wrote in Christianity Today:

      Quote:

      December 25 already hosted two other related festivals: natalis solis invicti (the Roman “birth of the unconquered sun”), and the birthday of Mithras, the Iranian “Sun of Righteousness” whose worship was popular with Roman soldiers. The winter solstice, another celebration of the sun, fell just a few days earlier. Seeing that pagans were already exalting deities with some parallels to the true deity, church leaders decided to commandeer the date and introduce a new festival.

      Western Christians first celebrated Christmas on December 25 in 336, after Emperor Constantine had declared Christianity the empire’s favored religion.

      Unquote.

      Elisha ends with a helpful thought addressing the concern that too many Christian Christmas traditions are “just paganism wrapped with a Christian bow.”

      Remember that the case we are dealing here is not historical Jesus but is Christianity a copy cat of Mithraism. So the burden of proof is on the affirming(You 🙂 )

      Moreover you have the following to chew on:

      1. Even if true that there are records of dying and raising sun gods. The argument is still logically fallacious. Thus your position does not stand critical thinking.

      2. Justin wrote that some of Christian assertions are not alien to Stoics(viz. suffering god, miracle works e.t.c) and Platonic(viz. immortality of soul) but Just made it clear that Christian’s alone afford proof of what we assert.

      In Christ,
      Prayson

  32. prayson, arent you going off topic in trying to pin the youre right im wrong thing on me here, when it was YOU making the first statements? i thought wed stick to the topic? you have no selfcritisism at all do you? you think its fine to do these offending and grossly inaccurate postings in the dillusion that because you believe in god youre entitled to do so? even if the subject has no bearing on your life at all? why quote from the first century after christ and not look at reality?
    also you left out a inconvenient part of the translation of leviticus: it states that its about FORCING yourself on etc…..i hope you adhere to all of the rules of leviticus yourself, or youd be a huge hypocrite 😉
    anyway, it starts to get on my nerves that you keep using the word logically when you clearly have no idea what the word means. it is a logical fallacy that YOU believe in a god that is supposed to be loving to blacks but hates gays. its a logical fallacy to assume the right to judge over those that dont influence your life in the least, ie gays. it is a logical fallacy to accept a dusty old book written and rewritten hundreds if not thousands of times and translated, including many errors, and corrupted by the clergy as the true and unerring word of god. it is logically fallous to follow the interpretations of bigotted white men and hold them to be true when their self-serving purpose has been highlighted througout by numerous scholars. and if youre such a stickler for the word in the bible, youre married to a WHITE woman. how does that compute? youd still be in chains if those guys had their way in the past. and not be married to the one you love! how can you judge others then? your wife is actually a sinner by your own intolerant viewing of the bible, she married a black man. whyis this ok, but someone who you might never even meet deserves your judging?
    quoting a us magistrate ill end with this: you can believe whatever you like, but you cant DO what you like. offending others by your arcane fundamentalist word splicing and judging onto others while pointing fingers at people that try to make you see what you are doing is very UNchristian-like is the typical response i got from all other religious fanatics ive met in my 41 years of being on this planet. so asking me if im right and youre wrong? yes, you are wrong in judging others when you have no negative influence from gays and other thinking humans and use the bible and not your own mind as a means. its you word-juggling christians that have to go to ever greater length to defend an un-defendable position. and im right for telling you that you should stop assuming youre holier than the rest of us non christans or other thinking humans. belief does not mean you have to set aside common sense now does it? youre a human being and no more, just like all of us. so i really hope you wont get the same treatment you give to gays, just for being not white, my friend. because its the same thing youre doing. on the other hand, i fear that that may be the only thing that might open your eyes…..very sad indeed.

    • Dear Prezzy,

      Thanks for your last comment. I believed you missed the point I were making. You claimed:

      Quote:

      its the fact that “believers” seen to think they are better off and regard other thinking humans as being incorrect, false, and apologetics. … summed up as :why i am right and you who think different are wrong

      Unquote

      And I wanted to show that you are doing exactly want you are against. You claim also to be right and I wrong 🙂 You are also a believer 🙂

      With gay-black-marry-white 🙂 I would simply say we are in the wrong post for that talk.(I would love to reply but it will straw what is at focus namely did Christians copied Mithraism?)

      Merry Christmas,
      Prayson

  33. Prayson,do you realize how long this thread is on your site?I have to scroll for 2 or 3 minutes to get to the bottom to post an answer.I had 3 sendings from you when i looked this morning i was off the computer for about an hour and a half and had 6 more posts.Why you can’t realise you have been beaten,whipped,blown into dust is completely beyond me,all you are doing is showing me Todd and Prezzy how silly and stupid your ingrained theory is.Go ahead and call that an ad-hominen attack.Talk about straw-man and and ad-hominen i have brought up dozens of things that fit into who copied who and you have never approached to answer any of them.
    That is because the only subject you think you know is Mithra.You have had no response to Jesus being a Sun God or no historical proof of Jesus as a flesh and blood person from the first century.If Jesus did not exist,that is the miracle worker,crucified and resurrected from the dead Jesus none of the copy cat thing is worth hashing out and is worthless.Prezzy and Todd as well as myself know you are only blowing smoke that has evaporated into nothing.As Prezzy said of you #1.no proof,#2.you think,i repeat think you know it all,#3.do you believe muslims,hindus or other nations gods are so,if not then why believe your Holy books claims?Their views are just as believable as yours because it is all based on ancient legends,myths,fables and tales about sun gods.Guys like you and other christians have sat around for 2000 years claiming Jesus would return,he hasn’t and never will except when the sun comes up each morning.
    You don’t have the faintest idea what critical thinking is,it’s your way or the highway.Why should i as you asked just deal with what you sent,i have already dealt with it,nothing else could change your mind controlled mind.Proof and evidence means nothing,ZERO to you.And in using the word you used with Prezzy (quote)in love,(unquote)meaning in love you gave your opinion that is poor excuse to use for you claiming you are right and certainly isn’t even the christian view of love,just a honey smear to make you look good.BAH-HUM-BUG.Your Bible says bring proof by 3 or 4 witnesses,well there is me,Prezzy and Todd saying you are wrong,that’s 3 witnesses just as your Bible asks for,again you are proved wrong.All you do is slither and twist like a snake,there is no doubt whatsoever that christianity copied everything from earlier paganism,from the Pope’s fish hat to Purgotory,then Protestants in Protest dropped some of it but kept most of the pagan sun god beliefs,adopting,copying,counterfeiting it all into Jesus and the christian religion.Christian theology,seminaries only teach you how to lie to defend(Apologetics) and get around hundreds,no thousands of biblical problems.You are like wolves trying to lead the following sheep.Thank you very much Prezzy and Todd for being good researchers and good thinking.
    Sincerely,Jay Osborne
    P.S.No Prayson not in Christs name,just sincerely,i don’t use non-existant people along with my name.

    • Dear Jay,

      I believe if you click on the comment at the top right, your will directly be taken to the last replied comment 🙂

      We have to keep in mind that this post deals only with Cop-Cat apologist’s assertion that Christian copied from Mithraism. I would so much like to answer all other objection you rose but they will be going outside the crux of this article.

      In the long post I showed two things:

      1. Even if true that there are records of dying and raising sun gods. The argument is still logically fallacious. Thus your position does not stand critical thinking.

      2. Justin wrote that some of Christian assertions are not alien to Stoics(viz. suffering god, miracle works e.t.c) and Platonic(viz. immortality of soul) but Just made it clear that Christian’s alone afford proof of what we assert.

      Would you be kind to engage in what I presented 😀 Because if you fail to show that your argument is 1. logically valid and sound and 2. that you got evidence then I would conclude as Justin Martyr did: Christian’s alone afford proof of what we assert.

      Abiding in Christ,
      Prayson

  34. 1. yes you dont. no proof, just shaky argumentation at best, and silence when confronted with logic. how about that titanic argument? 1984?
    2.yes you are, even if you dont realise it. you seem to think you know it all, when in fact you just know what you know. which can hardly be considered everything 😉
    3. yes they do: christians speak other thinking ppl as nonbelievers and sinners, as do muslims, hindus. like you do in stating other peoples beliefs are false.
    4. yes you have: you seem to feel really strong eventho with simple logic most of your arguments can be shown to be at least not factual.

    anyway, im sorry you dont see im making an efford to expand your horizon. theres more to life and its splendour than can be found in books 🙂 even if they are from socalled authorities or even, as you seem to believe God himself.

  35. Well Prayson it took you a long time to answer my last post,did you have to go back and re-read the garbage your seminary training taught you on how to make excuses and how to twist ancient Justin Martyr’s writings?Thanks Todd for your support again you show you are thinking not rattling like Prayson.Now Prayson let me show you how twisted your thinking and theorys are,you told me the English language was not in use in ancient writings and that i couldn’t claim the “SUN” vs.”Son”exchange of words(like Sun OF God vs.Son of God)but then when it suits your purpose you send a quote(link)(copy paste) of Roberts-Donaldson English translation of Justin Martyr’s works.What makes you think that his and your twisting of Justin’s works translated into English is any better than mine?I have a basis for mine all christians that i know of claim Mal.4:2 is about Jesus,there it says SUN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS,not “SON”also Ps.84:11(KJV)says the O.T.God is the SUN.By your stupid theory of the English language not being in use back then how can any of the Bible be exact,there are about 100 or more english translations of the Bible none of them exactly the same,just translators guessing at the way ancient out dated Hebrew,Aramic and Greek languages should be translated.
    But yet christian idiots claiming the Bible is inerrant,infallible and God inspired.Isn’t that the reason that there are over 500 different christian denominations in the U.S.A.all of you reading the same book and all of you coming to different conclussions about what that book says and all of you claiming only your theory is correct.It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out none of you know what you are talking about.You need to remove all the apolegetic garbage you have ingrained in your mind from Christian seminaries courses and start over using your own mind.There are so many different ways that prove christianity copied off of ancient pagan sun god myths that it is pityful that you are mind controlled,brainwashed with blind faith and are blind as a bat.You say your wife drew you into being schooled as an apologetic did it ever occur to you that she and you are wrong.You have allowed yourself to be duped into believing lies upon top of lies.Justin Martyr plainly says that the devils heard(or read)about what the prophets said and counterfeited ahead of Jesus time the very same things that then was being said about Christ,the prophets were long before christianity,you really don’t have one shred of evidence that it was paganism copying off of paganism.
    Everything in christianity was copied off of paganism,the cross came from the winter solstice,they called it a crux when the sun was moving from the shortest day of the year to getting longer days the sun looks like a cross(crux)this happens Dec.22nd.to Dec.25th.they also thought the sun was dying on the 22nd.shortest day of the year,by the 25th.it was resurrecting (re-born)(born again)after 3 days and 3 nights,just like Jesus was supposedly crucified then resurrected 3 days later.The sun or moon rays when looking out over a body of water seems to be walking on water just like the claim Jesus walked on water,the N.T. claims Jesus is “THE Light of the World”the sun is the light of the world,the powers of darkness(supposedly Satan)is when the earth revolves and darkness wins over the light,hell was that ball of fire (the sun)when it seems to go under the earth and the ancients thought the wicked would be thrown into hell which the fire was the burning hot sun.The Roman Empire governed over many different nationalities who had many different sun god beliefs the Roman Empire needed a state religion to better govern over the different nationalities,christianity was the answer,so about 325 A.D.Constantine made christianity the state religion later the Roman Catholic church came along developing christianity further.Jesus as a flesh and blood person never existed,he is yet another sun god out of thousands of others.That is what you worship an ancient Sun God,the proof is out there but it takes a lot of digging out,which is what you may never do because it interferes with your biblical mind control.
    Sincerely,JAY

    • Dear Jay,

      Sorry I was away for two weeks and that I could not answer the comments “in time”.

      I could use another English-Translation of Justin’s work 🙂 to show you that I did not twist Justin’s work but made sure you knew the context of the quotes you gave. As I pointed out:

      1. Even if true that there are records of dying and raising sun gods. The argument is still logically fallacious. Thus your position does not stand critical thinking.

      2. Justin wrote that some of Christian assertions are not alien to Stoics(viz. suffering god, miracle works e.t.c) and Platonic(viz. immortality of soul) but Just made it clear that Christian’s alone afford proof of what we assert.

      I would kindly ask you to deal with what I presented on Justin. Lets leave straw-man and ad hominem and deal with what is at the crux.

      In Christ,
      Prayson

  36. no prayson, there you go again……im not saying im right, im saying your conviction in the info you state is unwarranted. you have no proof. and the info you give is so open to interpretation that it doesnt even deserve the name fact. its just ramblings of writers who lived hundreds of years ago. furthermore, YOU started this thread , and with the title and tone it has YOU act like every one else is wrong. stick to the facts, not to what you think you can read into them. none of my arguments against yours has been adressed adequately. this is why people like me usually give up in these discussions, and people like you assume that therefore they have won the discussion. i think its pretty sad that you seem to derive some sense of satisfaction from this, when it should actually cause the opposite.i blew your titanic argument out of the water, and you dont even react. my guess is that you spend most of your time researching and reading, when you should be living your life. you read and study to divide and you dont realise it. the major religions all have one thing in common: all of them say that they are right and others are wrong. all im saying is you have no facts to prove your position or reasoning. for every argument you give i can give you one pointing the opposite direction, with the same or higher factual content. its your triumphant calls like pow there goes the mithras theory and such that gives away that you think youre better than ppl that dont agree with you. now if you had stated this is whati believe, then i would have accepted that, since you can believe in what ever you like. i wouldnt dare to try to change that. its when you present those things as fact that the real attitude becomes clear. you are a christian fundamentalist, because you choose books over people. try to live your life according to those few guidelines jesus, your saviour not mine has given you, instead of following the writings of people that are both removed a long time from both jesus time and ours. afterall, making more of the bible than it is – a book – is a form of idolatry too 😉 you may have built a beautiful house, but its built on shaky foundations.

    • I will ask, out of love, what you comment above is it right? Are you right that:

      1. I have not proof and the information I gave is open to interpretation?
      2. I study to divide?
      3. Major religion has one thing in common?
      4. I may have built a beautiful house on shaky foundations?

      Are you right and I am wrong? If yes, then present your arguments, give support your assertion and if no, why should I then make of your comments?

  37. todd: ill tell you what drives me in such discussions. its the fact that “believers” seen to think they are better off and regard other thinking humans as being incorrect, false, and apologetics. to me, someone who goes out of his way to find anything corroborating his own view of the world isnt looking for truth, because they dont factor in their own humanity and therefore their lack of selfreflection in this. a true seeker lets go of the books, and tries to find whatever truth he or she is seeking in life itself. the basic premiss of this topic posted by prayson can be summed up as :why i am right and you who think different are wrong. that is a typical version of religious arrogance that gets on my nerves every time. if the tone had been less arrogant and more open to a real exchange of thoughts instead of an im right youre wrong kind of approach, i believe many socalled apologetics wouldnt even have reacted to it. in fact, i think prayson is quoting a lot of stuff which he thinks is saying one thing, but i normally dont trust that information if it comes from someone who doesnt write proper english. also, believing implies that one doesnt KNOW for SURE. prayson seems to know for sure, which tells me he assumes he knows god. noone does. if there is, for the sake of argument a god like depicted in the bible, that is in contradiction to praysons attitude. logic tells me that no god who creates man in his own image and gives him the tools to think for himself will then expect him to accept just what is told to him by fellow men quoting from a book that has been changed and augmented so much in history. if prayson is happy believing the way he does, by all means, im glad hes happy then. but why does he have to refute someone elses truth? wheres the gain in that? for example: im not a muslim, but when i talk to them i tend to accept their view as their view, and we talk about the almighty one then. since both god and allah stand for the same thing, we have common ground then, which is a fruitful base for getting closer, not deviding us further. also his reasoning is kind of odd. case in point: his titanic argument is so off the mark, just by realising that the book he referred to was written when the mammoth cruise ships were being developed as the newest biggest thing mankind did at that time. of course someone will see the dangers in such an adventure and the smart and artistic/literary ones will see a good subject for a book in it. just like nano-technology was a hot topic when it was invented, or the infamous book 1984 by George Orwell was about totalitarian regimes. the similarities between 1984 and modern china and korea are uncanny. i just really had hoped for a more unifying approach from him, being a good christian according to his own ideas. but its just quote bashing and lambasting other thinking humans. thats what gets to me. i dont think that if he exists, that his plan was to have us fight over his words, let alone what people a few hundred years ago thought and wrote about him.

    • Thanks Prezzy,

      But Prezzy that is exactly what you did in your comment above viz.to show why your right and who think different are wrong. So apparently you are also an apologist (defender of your position). We are all believers Prezzy :=)

      In this article I showed that the Mithra-Myth parallelism are false. As an apologist I am called to give defense to what I believe. I do care to show that I am right and Mithra-Myth apologist are wrong because I do love them and I do not want them to miss out the joy in Christ because of false historical information.

      I do thank you for the comment but I do pray that we focus on the topic at hand: namely did Christian copied from Mithraism. Lets focus us on the arguments and historical documents.

      In Christ,
      Prayson

  38. Hi Jay and Mr. Prayson! I’d like to add a little more of what I see here. I’ll speak as though I know something but rest assured I most certainly am just as liable to be mistaken as any other person : D

    In the copies of information Jay pasted it seems pretty clear how this whole thing unfolds in the minds of those in a struggle for belief:

    “Keep in mind that these pagan religions all came first. Justin Martyr is not claiming that they copied Christianity after Jesus came, but that “wicked devils” knew ahead of time of Jesus’ coming, and thus set up pre-copies of Christianity.”

    This kind of rationalization has become commonplace in apologetics. One of the better graces of my life was to quit on this kind of thinking and start inquiring into what is actual (true) vs. what I wanted to be true. In Renee Descartes’ “Demon in a Box” theory it is fairly well summed up how this could all just be the programming of some demon, and all our efforts to understand amount to “a demon made me think that.” A lot of philosophical and religious arguments similarly have a built in defense to them in that, no matter what happens, the mind and the person isn’t in control, the game that is playing them is. The believer can not be swayed because that is what the devil is out to do (take away one’s faith). Rarely have I seen where someone will question this to the extent that they find it is just their own mind rationalizing what they want to be true, or are compelled to think is true by virtue of their social and religious conditioning. In fact, one kind of death that HAD TO OCCUR for me in order for this grace to take place, is the loss of “god” in the rational mind. In other words, whatever I think is the truth, or god, or whatever, THAT AIN’T IT. If I can think it, wrap my mind around it and explain it, it is NEVER the actual thing…just a concept. The actual thing is sort of real-time and the mind tries to jump in and claim knowledge of it, which isn’t possible.

    Until this kind of transformation of seeing happens, things will continue to appear in life that challenge one’s faith or lack of faith, ones understanding and beliefs about the nature of reality and the ‘real world.’ So, regardless of what anyone says most rational people, whether atheist, christian, jew, muslim, buddhist or whatever, will have doubts because of the things life throws at them. To live in constant conviction of any singular conceptual framework can only be delusion.

    Jay, If I were still the apologist I used to be, I would be not have been thanking you for affording me the time and opportunity to be more honest about my belief…even though that is exactly what I SHOULD do : ) I say it to YOU now because other people who pointed these things out to me years ago got the standard explaining away treatment (a snowjobing of some sort that I obtained in my readings, I don’t care to recall, it was all just denial on my part). Christian literalists still have the “benefit” of their own conveniently agreeing scholars to prop up the traditional view of the faith. It took a lot to bring me to a new level of honesty, but if I had known what the true burden and toll of living in denial and untruth was at that time, I’d have dropped all stories in favor of truth so fast. Truth really does set one free. However, more will come to light that the Bible SEEMS to be in disagreement with, and the apologists will head back to the shed to hammer out more explanations why no change or revision should occur in the minds of conflicted and disillusioned believers.

    Still Jay, I held on as I was sure about a few things that none of these facts changed.

    Mr. Prayson, if these things turned out to be true, would such a thing alone be sufficient enough to take away the grace you’ve experienced? I’m sometimes saddened that In my experience it’s easier to find common ground with someone turned-off to biblical inerrancy than someone who may say I’m picking and choosing, adding and subtracting from the faith to create my own truth. Or that I’m using “man’s wisdom” to supercede “god’s wisdom.” Or worse still, foregoing all these illogical arguments and just dismiss my words as the embittered ramblings of an apostate. But Mr. Prayson, your manners, patience, and ease seem to indicate someone who has come to some discoveries of value, some wisdom on the way. I doubt some facts and figures could take that away from you, correct? Perhaps you know something more I don’t, and if that is so, forgive my probing questions/assumptions. But the world is complex beyond our ability to understand it. Error in understanding does not threaten that which is true within you, and you know this, because what is true is uncaused and eternal. Depending on nothing, in need of nothing, it has been true all along.

    So, while I do think Jay, that you are correct factually, I also believe among Christians…well among anyone…that honestly we need to get to the point of what drives such an inquiry for God/Truth and what it really says about us, our traditions, our beliefs, our progress in scientific matters,…the whole picture. Are we seeking the truth to be right and correct for it’s own sake or our sake or is it an intuitive knowing that truth leads to a greater state of being for all? I do see there is a lot of apologetics missing the dollar by chasing nickels around and it comes from this desire to see to it that the Bible gets promoted and viewed as a book of history, science, philosophy, social design, etc instead of being in a category of a completely different order. In doing so they set up the religion and the book as a thing of praise instead of what these things point to…whatever name that is given.

    Todd

  39. Remember Justin Martyr admitted the pagan sun gods were first but his silly excuse was the Devil read the O.T.prophecies and beat God by sending them first through paganism.
    Copy and paste:Justin Martyr was born around 100 CE, and was a prominent apologist and figure in early Christianity. So much so that he is viewed as being one of the “Church Fathers” – figures in Orthodox Christianity who contributed to the key doctrines, beliefs, and history of the Christian faith.

    The following quotes are taken from Justin Martyr’s First Apology. In these, Justin Martyr cites links between Greco-Roman paganism and early Christianity.

    Here Justin Martyr states that the judgment of Rhadamanthus and Minos, as stated by Plato, would in fact happen by Jesus. In addition, he states that it would happen for the same time period that Plato named.

    Ch. 8

    Plato, in like manner, used to say that Rhadamanthus and Minos would punish the wicked who came before them; and we say that the same thing will be done, but at the hand of Christ, and upon the wicked in the same bodies united again to their spirits which are now to undergo everlasting punishment; and not only, as Plato said, for a period of a thousand years.

    In chapter 18, titled “Proof of Immortality and the Resurrection”, Justin Martyr simply cites the beliefs of pagans as evidence that an immortal soul and the resurrection of Jesus was possible and did in fact happen.

    Ch. 18

    For let even necromancy, and the divinations you practice by immaculate children, and the evoking of departed human souls, and those who are called among the magi, Dream-senders and Assistant-spirits (Familiars), and all that is done by those who are skilled in such matters–let these persuade you that even after death souls are in a state of sensation; and those who are seized and cast about by the spirits of the dead, whom all call daemoniacs or madmen; and what you repute as oracles, both of Amphilochus, Dodana, Pytho, and as many other such as exist; and the opinions of your authors, Empedocles and Pythagoras, Plato and Socrates, and the pit of Homer, and the descent of Ulysses to inspect these things, and all that has been uttered of a like kind. Such favor as you grant to these, grant also to us, who not less but more firmly than they believe in God; since we expect to receive again our own bodies, though they be dead and cast into the earth, for we maintain that with God nothing is impossible.

    Justin Martyr compares the beliefs and teachings of Christianity with the poets (those who created the Greek myths), the philosophers, Plato, the Stoics, Meander, and other similar writers.

    Ch. 20

    If, therefore, on some points we teach the same things as the poets and philosophers whom you honor, and on other points are fuller and more divine in our teaching, and if we alone afford proof of what we assert, why are we unjustly hated more than all others? For while we say that all things have been produced and arranged into a world by God, we shall seem to utter the doctrine of Plato; and while we say that there will be a burning up of all, we shall seem to utter the doctrine of the Stoics: and while we affirm that the souls of the wicked, being endowed with sensation even after death, are punished, and that those of the good being delivered from punishment spend a blessed existence, we shall seem to say the same things as the poets and philosophers; and while we maintain that men ought not to worship the works of their hands, we say the very things which have been said by the comic poet Meander, and other similar writers, for they have declared that the workman is greater than the work.

    This one is rather self-explanatory. Justin Martyr simply states that the virgin birth of Jesus, without sexual union, as well as his crucifixion, death, and resurrection were nothing different from the mythology surrounding Jupiter (In Greece, Zeus).

    Ch. 21

    And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter.

    Similar to above, Justin Martyr compares the birth of Jesus and his status as the “Word of God’ to that of Mercury, who was also born in a similar way and who was also the “Word of God.” He goes on to compare the crucifixion with the lives of the sons of Jupiter, which were on par according to him. Finally concluding by comparing the birth of Jesus with Perseus, and his miracles with that of Aesculapius.

    Ch. 22

    And if we assert that the Word of God was born of God in a peculiar manner, different from ordinary generation, let this, as said above, be no extraordinary thing to you, who say that Mercury is the angelic word of God. But if any one objects that He was crucified, in this also He is on a par with those reputed sons of Jupiter of yours, who suffered as we have now enumerated.

    And if we even affirm that He was born of a virgin, accept this in common with what you accept of Perseus. And in that we say that He made whole the lame, the paralytic, and those born blind, we seem to say what is very similar to the deeds said to have been done by Aesculapius.

    Again, this one is very self explanatory. Justin Martyr simply states that Christian beliefs are similar to Greco-Roman mythology.

    Ch 24.

    In the first place [we furnish proof], because, though we say things similar to what the Greeks say, we only are hated on account of the name of Christ, and though we do no wrong, are put to death as sinners

    Now, you might ask yourself, “Why would a notable apologist for the early Christian church admit to all of the similarities and influences between Christianity and Greco-Roman paganism?” Probably because the influences were too strong to cover up or hide.

    But alas, like a good apologist Justin Martyr had an excuse. It was what is referred to as “diabolical mimicry” – the notion that the devil or devils knew ahead of time that Jesus was coming, thus setting up pagan religions to thwart the faithful.

    Diabolical Mimicry

    For having heard it proclaimed through the prophets that the Christ was to come, and that the ungodly among men were to be punished by fire, [wicked demons] put forward many to be called sons of Jupiter, under the impression that they would be able to produce in men the idea that the things which were said with regard to Christ were mere marvelous tales, like the things which were said by the poets.

    The devils… said that Bacchus was the son of Jupiter, and gave out that he was the discoverer of the vine, and they number wine among his mysteries; and they taught that, having been torn in pieces, he ascended into heaven. (Referring to Jesus turning water to wine as Dionysus, or Bacchus, did 600 years earlier.)

    [The devils] gave out that Bellerophon, a man born of man, himself ascended to heaven on his horse Pegasus. (Reference to Jesus riding into town on an ass.)

    And when [the devils] heard it said by the other prophet Isaiah, that He should be born of a virgin, and by His own means ascend into heaven, they pretended that Perseus was spoken of. (Reference to Perseus being born of a virgin before Jesus.)

    And when, again, [the devils] learned that it had been foretold that He should heal every sickness, and raise the dead, they produced Aesculapius. (Reference to virtually all of the miracles of Jesus being copies of Aesculapius.)

    Mimicry of Baptism

    And the devils, indeed, having heard this washing [baptism] published by the prophet, instigated those who enter their temples, and are about to approach them with libations and burnt-offerings, also to sprinkle themselves.

    Mimicry of Eucharist

    Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, “This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body;” and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, “This is My blood;” and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.

    Keep in mind that these pagan religions all came first. Justin Martyr is not claiming that they copied Christianity after Jesus came, but that “wicked devils” knew ahead of time of Jesus’ coming, and thus set up pre-copies of Christianity.

    He makes reference to virtually every rite and doctrine found within Christianity – baptism, Eucharist, virgin birth, crucifixion, water into wine, resurrection.

    So, the choice is yours. Is this a clear link between Greco-Roman pagan religion and Christianity; one that documents the influence of the latter on the former – or did DEVILS makes the whole thing up? Let the rational mind decide.

    Copyright © 2006. All Rights Reserved.
    From me>>Justin Martyr wrote around 150 A.D.He admits that the Mithra Eucharist was first before christianity,that means he knew that Mithra belief was before christianity,and then shows through other pagan sun gods that the wine (vine Jn.15:5 and elsewhere in the N.T.)were first,that a crucifixtion,resurrection,babtism,ascending to heaven,born of a virgin,riding on an ass,healing,raising people from the dead were all before christianity.The Devil got there first was his only lame excuse.Don’t try to twist what Justin said leave it plain like Justin wrote it.
    JAY OSBORNE

    • Hello Jay,

      Thank you for Justin Martyr quotes. I have read his apologies.

      First I would like to show that even if its true (for the argument sake) that there are mythical record of death and resurrection prior to Christ Jesus, its still does not logically follow that one copied from the other.

      Example: If you read Morgan Robertson’s fictional work viz. The Wreck of the Titan or Futility (Buccaneer Books, Cutchogue, New York, 1898) that is 14 years before the Titanic disaster took place and W. T. Stead, an English journalist writing of detail account of sinking passenger-liner in mid- Atlantic caused by an iceberg by 1882, should we then conclude that RSM Titanic struck of iceberg and sank on 15 April 1912 claiming 1517 people lives was a myth? I believe we would get in trouble in Southampton’s folks.

      What I am showing here is that even though event X happens prior to event Y it is logically fallacious to reason the way Copy-Cat Myth apologist wish us to believe viz. Y copied X.

      Answering the Copy-Pasted

      We have to keep in mind that Justin address to Emperor Titus Aelius Adrianus Antoninus Pius Augustus Caesar and his sons was written c.150-160 A.D.
      That been said, I would like to quote the entire chapter to show you how scholarly dishonest the work of the guy you copied pasted his work is. I used Roberts-Donaldson English Translation of Justin’s work.


      Chapter VIII: CHRISTIANS CONFESS THEIR FAITH IN GOD.

      And reckon ye that it is for your sakes we have been saying these things; for it is in our power, when we are examined, to deny that we are Christians; but we would not live by telling a lie. For, impelled by the desire of the eternal and pure life, we seek the abode that is with God, the Father and Creator of all, and hasten to confess our faith, persuaded and convinced as we are that they who have proved to God by their works that they followed Him, and loved to abide with Him where there is no sin to cause disturbance, can obtain these things. This, then, to speak shortly, is what we expect and have learned from Christ, and teach. And Plato, in like manner, used to say that Rhadamanthus and Minos would punish the wicked who came before them; and we say that the same thing will be done, but at the hand of Christ, and upon the wicked in the same bodies united again to their spirits which are now to undergo everlasting punishment; and not only, as Plato said, for a period of a thousand years. And if any one say that this is incredible or impossible, this error of ours is one which concerns ourselves only, and no other person, so long as you cannot convict us of doing any harm.

      Justin point out that the wicked would be punish at the hand of Christ who is the eternal judge. Plato believed that in Dualism, and that our souls are immortal, thus Justin is showing that the wicked would go through everlasting punishment. Your source is fails to grasp this.

      CHAPTER XVIII — PROOF OF IMMORTALITY AND THE RESURRECTION.

      For reflect upon the end of each of the preceding kings, how they died the death common to all, which, if it issued in insensibility, would be a godsend to all the wicked. But since sensation remains to all who have ever lived, and eternal punishment is laid up (i.e., for the wicked), see that ye neglect not to be convinced, and to hold as your belief, that these things are true. For let even necromancy, and the divinations you practise by immaculate children, and the evoking of departed human souls, and those who are called among the magi, Dream-senders and Assistant-spirits (Familiars), and all that is done by those who are skilled in such matters–let these persuade you that even after death souls are in a state of sensation; and those who are seized and cast about by the spirits of the dead, whom all call daemoniacs or madmen; and what you repute as oracles, both of Amphilochus, Dodana, Pytho, and as many other such as exist; and the opinions of your authors, Empedocles and Pythagoras, Plato and Socrates, and the pit of Homer, and the descent of Ulysses to inspect these things, and all that has been uttered of a like kind. Such favour as you grant to these, grant also to us, who not less but more firmly than they believe in God; since we expect to receive again our own bodies, though they be dead and cast into the earth, for we maintain that with God nothing is impossible.

      Justin wanted the same favor grant to the belief of other (viz. immortality soul and “all of the like”) to also be granted to Christians.

      CHAPTER XX — HEATHEN ANALOGIES TO CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE.

      And the Sibyl and Hystaspes said that there should be a dissolution by God of things corruptible. And the philosophers called Stoics teach that even God Himself shall be resolved into fire, and they say that the world is to be formed anew by this revolution; but we understand that God, the Creator of all things, is superior to the things that are to be changed. If, therefore, on some points we teach the same things as the poets and philosophers whom you honour, and on other points are fuller and more divine in our teaching, and if we alone afford proof of what we assert, why are we unjustly hated more than all others? For while we say that all things have been produced and arranged into a world by God, we shall seem to utter the doctrine of Plato; and while we say that there will be a burning up of all, we shall seem to utter the doctrine of the Stoics: and while we affirm that the souls of the wicked, being endowed with sensation even after death, are punished, and that those of the good being delivered from punishment spend a blessed existence, we shall seem to say the same things as the poets and philosophers; and while we maintain that men ought not to worship the works of their hands, we say the very things which have been said by the comic poet Menander, and other similar writers, for they have declared that the workman is greater than the work.

      I would bold the following of what Justin wrote: If, therefore, on some points we teach the same things as the poets and philosophers whom you honour, and on other points are fuller and more divine in our teaching, and if we alone afford proof of what we assert, why are we unjustly hated more than all others?

      I believe your source is bind on the points I bold-ed(I also wonder why your source believe/accepts other things Justin say but historical resurrection of Jesus). It is true that Christian do teach the immortality of the soul as the Stoics and Platonic.

      CHAPTER XXI — ANALOGIES TO THE HISTORY OF CHRIST.

      And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter. For you know how many sons your esteemed writers ascribed to Jupiter: Mercury, the interpreting word and teacher of all; AEsculapius, who, though he was a great physician, was struck by a thunderbolt, and so ascended to heaven; and Bacchus too, after he had been torn limb from limb; and Hercules, when he had committed himself to the flames to escape his toils; and the sons of Leda, and Dioscuri; and Perseus, son of Danae; and Bellerophon, who, though sprung from mortals, rose to heaven on the horse Pegasus. For what shall I say of Ariadne, and those who, like her, have been declared to be set among the stars? And what of the emperors who die among yourselves, whom you deem worthy of deification, and in whose behalf you produce some one who swears he has seen the burning Caesar rise to heaven from the funeral pyre? And what kind of deeds are recorded of each of these reputed sons of Jupiter, it is needless to tell to those who already know. This only shall be said, that they are written for the advantage and encouragement of youthful scholars; for all reckon it an honourable thing to imitate the gods. But far be such a thought concerning the gods from every well-conditioned soul, as to believe that Jupiter himself, the governor and creator of all things, was both a parricide and the son of a parricide, and that being overcome by the love of base and shameful pleasures, he came in to Ganymede and those many women whom he had violated and that his sons did like actions. But, as we said above, wicked devils perpetrated these things. And we have learned that those only are deified who have lived near to God in holiness and virtue; and we believe that those who live wickedly and do not repent are punished in everlasting fire.

      Justin pointed out the things others believe about their gods which are not alien to those which Christians are claiming about Christ Jesus. He did name what those things were. He did not leave us wondering and I believe virgin birth(listed in connection with Ferseus), crucifixion and resurrection on the 3rd day are not listed here.

      CHAPTER XXII — ANALOGIES TO THE SONSHIP OF CHRIST.

      Moreover, the Son of God called Jesus, even if only a man by ordinary generation, yet, on account of His wisdom, is worthy to be called the Son of God; for all writers call God the Father of men and gods. And if we assert that the Word of God was born of God in a peculiar manner, different from ordinary generation, let this, as said above, be no extraordinary thing to you, who say that Mercury is the angelic word of God. But if any one objects that He was crucified, in this also He is on a par with those reputed sons of Jupiter of yours, who suffered as we have now enumerated. For their sufferings at death are recorded to have been not all alike, but diverse; so that not even by the peculiarity of His sufferings does He seem to be inferior to them; but, on the contrary, as we promised in the preceding part of this discourse, we will now prove Him superior–or rather have already proved Him to be so–for the superior is revealed by His actions. And if we even affirm that He was born of a virgin, accept this in common with what you accept of Ferseus. And in that we say that He made whole the lame, the paralytic, and those born blind, we seem to say what is very similar to the deeds said to have been done by AEsculapius.

      Justin pointed out that Jupiter suffered, thus it’s not alien to them to hear Christian claiming that Jesus, son of God suffered. Perseus was commonly accept to be born of a virgin(records says a different story) and miracle works of Æsculapius.

      Perseus was the son of Danae . He was born when Danae was impregnated by Zeus in the form of a golden shower. (Homer Iliad 14.319, Pindar Pythian 12. 16, Apollodorus 2.34, Strabo 10.5.10, Herodotus 6.53 & 7.61, Diodorus Siculus 4.9.1, Hyginus Fabulae 63 & 155, Ovid Metamorphoses 4.607, Nonnus Dionysiaca 2.286, et al). Keep in mind that his records are recorded in 2nd century.

      In Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca 2. 26 & 34 (trans. Aldrich) (Greek mythographer C2nd A.D.)

      In fear Akrisios constructed a bronze chamber beneath the earth, where he kept Danae under guard. Now some say that Proitos seduced her, which led to the hard feelings between the brothers, but others say that Zeus had sex with her by changing himself into gold that streamed in through the ceiling and down into her womb. When Akrisios later learned that she had given birth to Perseus, not believing that Zeus seduced her, he cast his daughter out to sea with her son on an ark. The ark drifted ashore at Seriphos, where Diktys recovered the child and brought him up.

      Also in Pseudo-Hyginus, Fabulae 63 (trans. Grant) (Roman mythographer C2nd A.D.) :

      “Danae was the daughter of Acrisius and Aganippe. A prophecy about her said that the child she bore would kill Acrisius, and Acrisius, fearing this, shut her in a stone-walled prison. But Jove [Zeus], changing into a shower of gold, lay with Danae, and from this embrace Perseus was born. Because of her sin her father shut her up in a chest with Perseus and cast it into the sea. By Jove’s [Zeus’] will it was borne to the island of Seriphus, and when the fisherman Dictys found it and broke it open, he discovered the mother and child. He took them to King Polydectes, who married Danae and brought up Perseus in the temple of Minerva [Athena].”

      Sources that show that records Perseus and show that he was not born of a virgin:

      • Homer, The Iliad – Greek Epic C8th B.C.
      • Hesiod, Theogony – Greek Epic C8th-7th B.C.
      • Hesiod, Shield of Heracles – Greek Epic C8th-7th B.C.
      • Pindar, Odes – Greek Lyric C5th B.C.
      • Aeschylus, Fragments – Greek Tragedy C5th B.C.
      • Euripides, Alcestis – Greek Tragedy C5th B.C.
      • Apollodorus, The Library – Greek Mythography C2nd A.D.
      • Apollonius Rhodius, The Argonautica – Greek Epic C3rd B.C.
      • Lycophron, Alexandra – Greek Poetry C3rd B.C.
      • Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History – Greek History C1st B.C.
      • Strabo, Geography – Greek Geography C1st B.C. – C1st A.D.
      • Pausanias, Description Greece – Greek Travelogue C2nd A.D.
      • Quintus Smyrnaeus, Fall of Troy – Greek Epic C4th A.D.
      • Hyginus, Fabulae – Latin Mythography C2nd A.D.
      • Hyginus, Astronomica – Latin Mythography C2nd A.D.
      • Ovid, Metamorphoses – Latin Epic C1st B.C. – C1st A.D.
      • Propertius, Elegies – Latin Elegy C1st B.C.
      • Valerius Flaccus, The Argonautica – Latin Epic C1st A.D.
      • Statius, Thebaid – Latin Epic C1st A.D.
      • Nonnos, Dionysiaca – Greek Epic C5th A.D.
      • Suidas – Byzantine Greek Lexicon C10th A.D.

      I believe your source is doing eisegesis and not exegesis of Justin’s work. So, Historically and Logically the Copy-Cat Theory does not stand Jay.

      Sorry for a lot of information I poured out.

      I love this quote from Justin which showed that Christians are not offering just another mythical account but “… we alone afford proof of what we assert …

      In Christ Jesus,
      Prayson

  40. The email from Todd you forwarded to me was very nice and he had a lot of good points,Thank you Todd.Prayson if you noticed every person but one that joined in our debate agreed with me.Does that tell you anything?I think that was either 3 or 4 to one that agreed with me.Why is that?It is of couse because my proof was better than yours.Remember i was not arguing completely about Mithras,the Jesus story is a combination of copying off of many ancient sun god claims long before christianity.I am going to send you another copy & paste of Justin Martyr’s writings,no it’s not a document before 30 A.D.but never the less it proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that christianity was copied from earlier than christianity pagan sun god myths.As far as i can tell this copy and paste is not from an atheist site but of course he realizes that Justin Martyr an early church father admitted over and over that christianity was a copy of earlier pagan sun god claims.
    Thanks again Todd,good thinking.
    Jay

  41. This was an interesting exchange. I enjoyed it thoroughly and learned quite a few things in the process. Mr. Prayson, what a truly graceful person you are. I personally believe you are mistaken Mr. Prayson, but it doesn’t matter, you clearly have found peace and want to convey it, and that is the ultimate kindness. Jay, I personally think you are someone who is more interested in truth than in propping up a story and living your life in service to ideals, dogma, and being lead around by beliefs. Which is great, totally relate!

    There is a sort of “ladder” effect to finding truth, and unfortunately, it works like this: on one rung of the ladder where any of us are, there are those above us and those below us in terms of their understanding and discernment. Some are climbing, and some have decided to stay where they are and justify why they have quit climbing. We should always be willing to help those who are on the rung below us, and receive help from those who we feel/know are on the rung above. But reaching too far (all the way to knowing our source) is foolhardy, reaching too far down to help someone who hasn’t yet labored to see the truth through the illusions is dangerous as you get sucked back into their realm of playing denial games, and it is ESPECIALLY counterproductive to help one who has decided they no longer need to climb. Now there is nothing wrong with stopping and conceeding that you have no further to go to know absolute truth. If Mr. Prayson says he is done, he has seen God and has no doubt about being where he wants to be, I would take him at his word and wish him well. I do not believe he needs to expend this kind of effort to intellectualize what he has found spiritually and am a bit perplexed at why he does it. It is clear at least to this reader that there are enough historical and scientific findings that make the Bible and other religious documents less than accurate.

    I do believe many people of the Christian faith have found something of great value. I’m not sure they know what it really is as I do not either…I know what they call it, and words do not change what a thing actually is, so who cares? Find what it is you most long to know. That may be God, the truth, love, absolute knowledge, but whatever it is called, all genuine searches lead to the same place: The source of all things. The actual thing of value, is not what it is called in words, or what this or that one tells you are the right facts etc. Leave others to their choice of scholars, beliefs, facts, and move on to find what all this is pointing at. When you get there, you will no doubt realize how absolutely you are like those who you claim are in delusion. The entire human race is! And guess what else? It’s perfect! The world we live in, even in all it’s so-called ‘imperfections’ is absolutely perfect simply because it IS THE TRUTH, IT IS THE ACTUAL,. It is what we are given, and it is what we ARE! All talk of what should be, even religious belief talk…simply pointers to what actually has always been the case. Now, when you are satisfied you know the truth, you may say “that is nonsense sir, you are talking nonsense!” And you’re right! It is nonsense conceptually. The mind doesn’t know what it needs to be happy and have grace. It is the biggest obstacle to those things. There is a truth that will also end your climb, and it will most certainly not match the words of contemporary christianity or any other beliefs with a mind like yours as you have gone beyond much of the dogma that it is steeped in. It is a gift to have the courage to follow where the truth leads, and not simply settle for other people’s or organizations’ “truth”. Do not smudge that gift in slinging mud with someone and name calling. Keep going further!

    Sorry, I’m always excited when I see other people who suffer for truth as I did, but I’m also empathitc when they haven’t yet seen that they ARE what they seek! I give my highest regards to both of you for your interesting exchange…the most significant of which that it ends with 2 people from 2 different paths agreeing to end on a friendly note of kind regards.

    -Todd

  42. prayson:

    we are dealing with you and your reasoning, and calvin is an essential part of your logic it seems. so its an important point to discuss, since they are at the root of your reasoning. furthermore, im not going to repost anything. i notice that were not having a discussion here. for a discussion, both partakers need to have an open mind, and you dont have that unfortunately. just know this: you can believe anything you want. you just cant do anything you want, so as long as you keep peddling your church constructed reasoning as your own, thats fine. its when you choose to take action against those you say are wrong, youll find me in front of you. when christians are attacking gays, abortion clinics and other “sinful” souls, ill be the first to make sure the religious bullying were experiencing these days gets countered. so far youve been just offensive, and hey, that tells me more about you than about the ones youre offending. besides, with the abuse cases in christian institutes, i think religious people should first make sure their own doorstep is clean. and then when they think their neighbours is dirty, they would still be smart to shut up and realise its none of their damn business.
    most secular scholars refute your churchs assertions about mithras. if you want to believe in fairytales told by people doing stuff they tell you is a sin, go ahead. its not like they never lied before is it? but dont tell us were wrong. all it does is make you and other religionists look stupid.

    • Again Prezzy has hit the nail on the head,because you Prayson have no reasoning,you only have a false religious theory from false religious claims you have ingrained in your pea sized brain.I write apologetics,ministers and supposed biblical biased scholars all the time when i see their false lying claims on the internet.Why you may ask?Because i despise liars who decieve others with christian propaganda.If you (Prayson)want to believe ancient legends,myths,fables and tales that’s fine but don’t put your lies out to the public and claim that you know the truth.You insult almost as bad as J.P.Holding (Tektonics Apologetics)who knows just as little as you do about ancient writings that you both twist into your warped theories.
      I thank Prezzy for his input.Prezzy is also correct that you have a ZERO open mind and you wouldn’t know the truth if it hit you straight in the nose.The only thing i can credit you with is being a good liar,because i have sent you irrefutable proof that christianity copied off of pagan sun god beliefs.I have never claimed it all came from Mithra but christianity is a belief system copied off of many different ancient sun god myths,fables and tales.Apologetics like to claim that Jesus fulfilled up to 300 O.T.prophecies,but when you look at them in the O.T.it is easy to see they were never prophecies to begin with.The anonymous writers of the 4 gospels pulled words and verses out of context with surrounding verses and made them seem prophecies fulfilled.The Bible has more contradictions,discrepancies and outright lies than Caters has little liver pills,and so apologetics like yourself continue piling lies on top of existing lies.Then sign your emails and postings with words like “Blessings” “Maranatha” “In Jesus name” e.t.c.trying to make youself look important with such signings.Yeahhh for Prezzy and Boooo for Prayson.
      Jay

    • Dear Prezzy,

      To differ is not to hate. I apologize for all Christians who have mistreated those who differ with them. They ought to care, love and speak against gays and abortion with great love and gentleness.

      I differ with my wife in many areas, but we learned that its because we care and love one another. I hope we can differ yet respect and love one another.

      Dear Jay,

      Thank you for your insight. If you think I differ with you on brained washed Christian ground, and I disagree that Christians copying Mithraism because I am Christian, cool! I gave you, none-Christians, who do not believe in God, who also refuted the copy-cat theory, Skeptic Project- Zeitgeist Movement , to show that my conclusion is also reached by atheists and skeptics.

      I am your ignorant dumb fool because you failed to produce documents to back up your claims. And you admitted what I “ask for an impossible document at least right now but it may be found later on”.

      Help me out Jay, from my dumbness and foolishness by backing up your claim with historical documents before A.D. 150 that support your position because what I and others from skeptic project have found only documents that goes against your position 🙂

      Be bless both of you and thank you so much for your comments,

      Prayson

      • Well why don’t you send me documents that comes from a contemporary source that the N.T.Jesus ever walked this earth?As Prezzy says there are plenty of secular scources,historians e.t.c. that don’t believe the Jesus tale and use good proof .and evidence why they don’t believe it.As i said before if you have no historical Jesus it does not matter whether Mithra was first or christianity was first.But really it’s a pretty simple common sense that proves Mithra and other Sun gods were first and the same customs were copied by christianity.Your argument holds no merit whatsoever.What you need to do is study ancient mythism then you’d see there were virgin born,crucified and resurrected from the dead,ascending to heaven Savior Sun Gods long before christianity.Your knowledge only comes from lying christian apologetics and biblical biased supposed scholars.And let me tell you they are liars beyond belief.
        Just because the Zeitgeist Movement agrees with your weird theory partially does not mean they are correct.i use my own mind to sort out truths or partial truths,i let no man in books,videos or internet garbage influence my thinking and reasoning,i investigate and research everything religious from the library and on the computer.I don’t only write christian sites i write Islam and tell them they are nuts to.I do that because i hate liars decieving other people with unproven garbage.At least 6 founding father presidents of this country were Deists and had no good thing to say about the Bible or christianity.Smart people figure out deceits and lies,especially if it’s important to them.So keep wandering around in the dark someday you may stagger on to the real honest truth.
        Jay.

          • II didn’t write this copy and paste Prayson but it fits you to a T.Enjoy and think while you read.

            Paste:You might be a Christian if…
            Aaron Kinney Permalink 88 comments trackback

            22) You think you defend your worldview successfully, but your two main arguments are based on circular reasoning (The Bible is true because the Bible says…) and ad hominem attacks (Everyone already knows God is real, and those who deny it are lying to themselves).

            21) You always try to observe the ten commandments like Exodus 20:7, but you never try to observe the punishments like Leviticus 24:16.

            20) You trust a book written by sheepherders in a time when humans thought the world was flat and that women determined the gender of offspring, but you don’t trust a book written in modern times by a scientist.

            19) You believe that fear of God and love of God are compatible and even complimentary.

            18) You believe that a material universe created ex nihilo by an eternal, immaterial God makes more sense than an eternal, material universe itself.

            17) You believe that a being that creates flawed, imperfect, and evil entities can be all loving and all wise.

            16) You think that a story involving a God who sacrifices himself to himself in order to circumvent a law he created himself that would have forced him to send his own flawed creations to a Hell he created himself makes perfect sense.

            15) You think two wrongs make a right in that everyone is born guilty, and that spilling innocent blood provides redemption for this inherent guilt.

            14) You deny the first law of thermodynamics, and champion the second law of thermodynamics.

            13) You claim that faith (belief in things unevidenced) is required for salvation, but you attempt to prove Christianity with material evidence every chance you get.

            12) You insist that God is responsible for everything in the universe, and then insist that original sin is Adam’s fault and that Satan was responsible for his own rebellion.

            11) You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.

            10) You feel that the theory that people evolved from other life forms trivializes and cheapens humanity, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt and ribs.

            9) You claim that God’s love is all encompassing and unconditional, and the only condition is that you admit worthlessness and submit fully to his will.

            8) Your cringe when you hear of the “atrocities” attributed to Allah, but you don’t even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in “Exodus” and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in “Joshua” — including women, children, and trees!

            7) You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.

            6) You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (4.55 billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a couple of generations old.

            5) You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs — though excluding those in all rival sects — will spend eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most “tolerant” and “loving.”

            4) While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in “tongues” may be all the evidence you need to “prove” Christianity.

            3) You state that prayers are always answered even if the exact opposite of what you pray for happens.

            2) Despite the fact that prisons and mental institutions have a higher percentage of Christians than the general population, and college educated people have a higher percentage of atheism than the general population, you claim that Christianity will improve ones moral code and quality of life; you claim that Christians are better people. Then when presented with this contrary evidence, you claim that the devil is to blame for this “deception”.

            1) Your grandest wish is for God/Jesus to come down from heaven and initiate an apocalypse, yet again committing near total genocide on all of humanity.
            Sent by Jay

      • Again, I say thank you Jay.

        Two thing that I know that makes me a Christian, Jay, are the joy in knowing that I am a greatest sinner, and Christ is my greatest savior, and I am a greatest fool in your eyes, but know one Truth, that has set me free in a way that I truly love and respect you.

        Be blessed,
        Prayson

        • Thank you for the nice statement above,i accept it fully and appreciate it.I will apologize to you for calling you a fool,dumb,e.t.c.I know you are neither of those,you are just a decieved person i say that because i know i was a decieved person for the 32 years i was in christianity.I think i told you that it took over 8 years of investigatiom and research before i could finally rid my mind of biblical and christian mind comtrol,biblical brainwashing and blind faith.Of course now i am in my 19th.year of research and invesigation but it took over 8 years of research before i finally threw up my hands and said christianity and the Bible is the biggest conspiracy ever put over on humanity.Again i apoligize for any rudeness or offending of you,it was just that so many things were so plain for me to see but you could not see one thing i sent that was correct and it got pretty frustarating.Have a great life and enjoy it
          Sincerely,
          Jay Osborne

          • My heart rejoices and fully and heartily accept your apology.

            My story is almost like yours but with different conclusion. I left Christianity when my doubts and skepticism were ripened, catalyzed by an immoral behavior that consumed me with guilt. I could no longer be a Christian. It was not until I met a wonderful and beautiful young lady(now my wife) who challenged me with her living faith. I changed my academic pursuit from aerodynamic to philosophy and theology, trying to show her she was wrong(I was madly in love with her 🙂 ). I was mistaken, I was the one who wrong. I thought I knew Christianity, I thought I knew God but I discovered that all I knew was about Christianity and about God. I was a doubting Thomas, but now I have put my fingers and touch, I believe.

            I also apologize for making you frustrated. Thank you for everything Jay.

            Be blessed,
            Prayson

  43. prayson, it is never too late for christians to steal/copy/borrow from other religions when it serves their purpose. where do you get that it would be too late for them to copy mithraism? thats so illogical its not even funny anymore. you obviously dont have the word Forgery in your vocabulary. which is odd, since its something christianity and catholiscism, along with islam is pretty famous for. and the more people write, the more of it is suspect. John Calvin is notorious for being rather single minded on what the writings mean. so paper doesnt lie, but the writers often do. if you choose to believe those things, thats fine. but know the meaning of the word believe: you have no proof, but you hold these things to be true. telling everyone they are wrong because you found a passage in some obscure book is no proof, in fact its rather naive. all those documents are interpretations of stories, and its offensive to other thinking humans. remember, you are the one putting these statements out there, and thereby asking for a reaction (or you wouldnt have posted them). so to conclude: your beliefs are yours and i will not attack them just because they arent mine. but when you act like they are the TRUTH youre overstepping your boundaries as a human being.
    another final point: just because we havent found a document that you find accepteable, doesnt mean there never was one. so thats another point of proof on your side out the window. so again: you have proven nothing, except your own rigidity in interpreting those documents, none of which bears any irrifutible authority of autheticity regarding to the use you put them to. alex, jay and myself have pretty much debunked every piece of proof you brought to the table on any subject we talked about, but you keep hanging on to archaic explanations that are clearly not your own. i really hope you will realie that some day.

    ps: several of my posts have been removed i see. thanks for telling alex you thought that to be unchristian. i guess youve proven my point with that.

    • Dear Prezzy,

      I tried to check my spam and trash folder but I see none of your post/(comment). Comments are only blocked or spammed automatic if the have more than two links. Sadly I do not see your “removed posts”. You are welcome to post them again.

      We are not dealing with Calvin in this article, so I am sorry I would not answer that part of your comment. Perhaps I could post an article on him and we could discuss there.

      Thank you for commenting and peace, joy, mercy and love of God be with you.

      Maranatha, Prayson

    • Good job Prezzy,Prayson will never admit he is wrong i have been messing with him since i think in April,evidence and proof means nothing to him.He even thinks Easter is associated with the Jewish Passover,he evicently does not even know Acts 12:4 is miss translated.Anyway Prayson i may make a comment on another email you sent me then i’ll be done with such ignorance.Like i said no use arguing with a complete fool,and idiot.While you (prayson)want a document on Mithra from before 1 A.D.you have never furnished me a document contemporary with Jesus supposed time on earth,that is the miracle worker,crucified and resurrected from the dead Jesus.If he never existed it’s worthless to debate who copied who.
      Jay

      • Dear Prezzy and Jay,

        Thank you both of you for sharing your insights. I did not send you an email Jay, but it could be in your inbox because you blocked us from your blog when we asked you to back up your claims with historical documents.

        I am completely fool and idiot to your claims that Christian’s crucified death, and resurrection of Jesus accounts are a copy of Mithra, because I found no historical document to enlighten me otherwise. I produced historical documents to show you that Mithra did not die but your hold to “impossible document at least right now but it may be found later on”.

        Please do enlighten me, produce historical document(or copies of copies of copies) that are before A.D. 150 that support your claims.

        Help out, I agree that I am your fool ignorant fool. I admit to that. But produce these documents and show that I am wrong.

        Be blessed, both of you.
        Prayson

  44. the first paragraph of your last reply makes no sense at all prayson. if those pagan elements where there before christianity, how can they be copied off christianity, something that didnt exist at that time? one can only copy what already is there. logically it follows that CHRISTIANS COPIED PAGANS. the other way around is fysically impossible.
    you quote and reason very oddly: christmas came 300 years after the birth of christ, and not after christianity; christianity is still going and developing. and its not the same way it was in the first 300 years now is it? if it was you would still be a slave just to name one drawback….
    i also dont get the bias you have against german scholars, after all you yourself lean heavily on the writings of a historically very ambivalent figure, being John Calvin. you do know he was a violent man that murdered, had people tortured and behaved in what we would consider very unchristian today. in holland a calvinist attitude is actually seen as a putdown. it means a person has an unflexible, rigid and judgmental attitude towards people that think differently, and is seen as fundamentalist, obsolete and archaic. and calvin used to be big in holland.

    • Hej Prezzy,

      I believe you got the “Germany scholar” out of context. If you read Jay and I’s comments you would understand what its means.

      BWT: Today, 494 years ago, Martin Luther nailed his 95 thesis to marked the public outbreak of reformation :D(John Calvin is french). The Germany scholar I am referring are of 1900s to whom give birth to the copy-cat theory.

      Be blessed,
      Prayson

  45. Prayson,are you still trying to argue with me?All you are doing is showing ignorance,i sent you plenty of evidence that christianity copied off of mystery religions(paganism),it wasn’t all off of Mithraism,parts of it is off of other Sun God claims.Justin Maryr’s writings prove this without any other references.but all you know is to twist his writings and deny,deny,deny.Even L.Rogers knew i was right and your answers to him was just like what you sent me deny,deny,deny.I am still waiting for documents from you from the first century (contemporary)that prove Jesus ever walked this earth as a flesh and blood person.Second century claims are worthless because by then christianity had added all kinds of garbage to the resurrection Jesus tale.
    You can continue having the disease of biblical mind control,biblical brainwashing and blind faith,but the truth is there is not one iota of proof or evidence that Jesus as the 4 gospels and N.T.describes him ever walked on the face of this earth.There were plenty of Jesus’es(people named Jesus)in the first century but it is the miracle worker,crucified and resurrected from the dead Jesus i want proof of.I have writen supposed biblical scholars they are just as dumb as you are sending any proof.Call this an ad homien attack if you want to i really don’t care.
    Jay Osborne

    • Dear Jay,

      I do agree that Justin Martyr wrote about Mithraism. The question I posed to you is, “present a historical document before 100 A.D. that show that Christians copied Mithraism”. I did not ask for Germany scholars or Catholic encyclopedia documents but the source to which they got their information. We want to date that source and see if it is before 100 A.D. Remember I do agree that Mithraism is older than Christianity, but what I found out, and what Justin Martyr is dealing with does not appear in Mithraism until 150 after Christ.

      If you do not agree with me because I am under “disease of biblical mind control, biblical brainwashing and blind faith” then do please check a secular/non-Christian refutation of your position: Skeptic Project- Zeitgeist Movement . They also reject your position.

      Blessing be upon you.
      Prayson

      • Of course you ask for an impossible document at least right now but it may be found later on.But there is plenty of proof and evidence not only from Mithra but from other sun god artfacts e.t.c.that thousands of sun gods were far earlier and had similarities to christianity.But actually the Roman historian Plutarch who lived (c.46-120)he lived close to B.C.and therefore would have had much knowledge of B.C.happenings,he says Mithraism was absorbed by the Romans during Pompey’s military campaign against pirates about 70 B.C.E.So again it is proved that Mithraism preceded christianity.Also a Catholic church in Rome the Church of San Clemente sits on top of a Mithra cavern(cave)where Miithra was worshipped,showing again Mithraism was there first.
        We know the Indo Iranian Mithra Sun God was worshipped 3500 to 4000 years ago and probably longer than that,the Roman Mithra may have been worshipped a little different than the Persia one but it still bounced off of the Persian Mithra.Constantine worshipped Sol Invictus which is another name for Mithra until he supposedly converted to christianianity about 312 A.D.but Constantine was not babtized into christianity until on his death bed about 337 A.D.and he did it then to further the Roman state religion,not because he thought he needed to be a christian.So you can deny,deny,deny all you want to that Mithra(and other sun gods) was copied off of christianity but it is a lie.Every evidence points to christianity being the ones who adopted,copied,counterfeited off of earlier sun god beliefs.Even your Bible proves that what later was called CHRISTS-MASS was observed by pagans and called heathen long before christianity(Jer.10:2-5,and Ezek.8:14-16 shows what later was called by christianity Easter(ISHTAR) was sun god worship long before christianity.So your argument that that the pagans copied off of christianity and not the other way around is completely false,a lie and not well researched at all.
        Jay Osborne
        P.S.And now where is your contemporary document showing there was a miracle worker,crucified and resurrected from the dead Jesus?You stand disproved by your own Bible document in the scriptures above.

        • Dear Jay,

          As I wrote before, I agree that Mithraism and many other sun-worship cults were before Christianity. But the elements in these cults that are claimed to be copied in Christian literatures comes after A.D. 150, to late for Christian to copy them and one can argue that, its the cults copying Christianity.

          We are dealing with your claim that Christian copied from Mithraism, to which you have failed to produce a copy or copy of copy of copy of copy of documents that shows that, instead you only produced Germany scholars materials, and Catholic encyclopedia to which none could produce their source.

          Remember that Christmas comes ca. 300 years after Christianity. It is not biblical, but its time were the catholic church decided to celebrate the unknown birth of Christ Jesus. Easter has to do with Jews Passover, but this time its God passing over those under the ultimate Lamb of God, Christ Jesus ca. 30 A.D.

          Be blessed Jay

          Maranatha, Prayson

          • Prayson or Maranatha,
            Just how dumb and ignorant are you ?I showed the Mithraism belief was in the Roman Empire at least by 70 B.C.E.as said by Plutarch that’s before christianity you know?As far as the elements copied by christianity they are entirely a copy from one or the other ancient before christianity Sun Gods.Of course you would and do argue with anything that doesn’t agree with your actually stupid theory.You show your ignorance when stating Christmas didn’t come till c.300,i carefully quoted Jer.10:2-5 and said plainly that scripture was about Christmas before it came to be called CHRISTS-MASS(Christmas) now tell me how can you be so ignorant that you can’t recognize those(Jer.10:2-5) as the same customs as is now observed as Christmas by christians but was then a pagan (heathen) custom?Really can’t you see how ignorant you are it wasn’t named Christmas till 300 c.but it’s the same sun god custom that you claim didn’t exist till after christianity and that pagans copied off of christianity.This is beyond ignorance,it’s plain dumb.
            Easter does not have anything to do with the Jews Passover,Easter it comes straight out of Sun God worship it’s named after Ishtar(pronounced Easter) an Eygptian female sun god.And notice in Ezek.8:15 their faces are turned to the East just exactly like you do at an Easter Sunrise service,and it says they worshipped the Sun toward the East which they faced.How dumb are you thinking Easter has anything whatsoever to do with the Jews?You have been well proved wrong with the silly idea that pagans copied off of christianity,any thinking researching person knows who copied off of who.
            Jay
            P.S.You are right on only one comment above when you say the unknown birth of Jesus,it is unknown over 40 historians and philosophers writing in the first century knew abosolutely nothing about a miracle worker,crucified and resurrected from the dead Jesus.

          • Dear Jay,

            Maranatha is an early Christian say, a prayer for the Lord Jesus to come back. Jay I am surprise that you qoute the Bible in places that you believe to support your position and at the same time rejecting and denying places in the same Bible that oppose your position.

            Mithraism and other sun-god worship cults are before Christianity, true. But I cannot, so were you, to find a single document before ca. A.D. 150 that claim the virginity birth, death and resurrection of their gods. This claims in these cults comes earliest ca. 150, to late for Christian to copy.

            Jay, if you are familier with the early Christianity history ca. A.D. 30-300 you find no celebration of Jesus birth, only his death and resurrection which was in the same period with Jews passover.

            Correct my dumbness, sillyness and ignoranceness by producing documents before A.D. 150 that support your claim.

            Maranatha, Prayson

          • Hey Prayson,
            It is impossible to argue with a fool and you have been one from start to finish.Where do you think the story of Semaramis (Nimrod’s wife)started it is said when Nimrod died she claimed he resurrected as an evergreen tree,symbolizing eternal life because the evergreen tree stays green all winter,this is also the begining of the pagan custom later called Christmas which christianity observes now while knowing Jesus was not even born on that date, even if one believes he ever existed you still worship an ancient Sun God myth.Your N.T.says “Jesus is the Light of the World.What really is the light of the world?Of course the sun is the light of the world and that’s exactly what you worship “THE SUN.You have waited 2000 years for Jesus to return,as a person or god he never will return,but the sun returns every morning.
            You don’t know history at all, you have merely pulled out things that support your ignorant theory.All over your N.T.in Paul’s writings you see people who lived right during Jesus supposed time that said Jesus never existed and there never was a resurrection they realized a religious hoax was being pulled over the peoples eyes.Later it is said Semaramis married or had sex with her own son,who became Tammuz,who is shown in Ezek.8 :14-16 as being worshipped as the sun at what was later called an Easter Sunrise service.Again showing christianity still worships the sun(not son)at an Easter sunrise service.In sun god artifacts long before christianity you see a similar to Mary holding a baby in her arms just like the Roman Catholic church now puts out as Mary holding the supposed baby Jesus.You really have to be dumb or biblical mind controlled,biblically brainwashed not to be able to see the christian conspiracy of copying,counterfeiting off of ancient sun god legends, myths,fables and tales.
            Prezzyand L.Rogers are correct they see through your screwed up theory,thinking people always do.The German people have always been very smart maybe you should read more closely even if some are 19th.century writings,because you are sure getting nowhere with whatever you are reading.You do not even acknowledge that you were wrong calling Easter a Jew Passover festival.You can continue with your pure ignorance,deny,deny,deny,me i am about through putting up with such ignorance.As L.Rogers figured out out about you in a couple of emails and stopped emailing you.
            Jay

      • Thank Jay,

        I accept that I am dumb, fool, and ignorant, but please help me out from my blindness and produce a document or copy of copy of copy of copy of a document that support your position that is before A.D. 150.

        You have failed to produce a document to backup your claims and by your own word admitted that I “ask for an impossible document at least right now but it may be found later on”.

        I presented you with documents from The University of Texas: Old Iranian Hymns: Avestan: Yasna and Young Avestan and engaged in the work of: MS Mithraic Studies: Proceedings of the First International Congress of Mithraic Studies. Manchester U. Press, 1975 in my article Pow! There Goes Mithra Myth Down to show you that the documents that we have do refute your claims.

        Unless you produce documents that support your claims, I believe I am going to remain your dearest “dumb ignorant fool”. 🙂

        Be blessed Jay,
        Prayson

  46. I was looking all over for this man- thanks for making it so clear. I was watching a bill maher clip–dudes hilarious, but he starts ripping on this good intentioned believers about believing crazy things about jesus. He then starts quoting mithra and other mystery religions and ancient world religions that pre date Christianity and jesus and he says that it proves Christianity borrowed from these religions.

    man, get those facts straight bill. What sucks is that the good intentioned christians do not know what to do and don’t know bill is spinning facts.

    It was refreshing to re find the dates of when mithra manuscripts begin to develop and we are able to see a manuscript live of late dates post resurrection explaining that christianity didn’t borrow form mithra, but rather mithra borrowed from judaism and christianity. Thanks brother, blessings…hope your still blogging away!

    -db

  47. just a few points here: there have been too many power-hungry ecclesiastics between jesus` time and today to use anything written down about him as, proof: one can say they point to something, but proof? no. otherwise we would have to assume King Kong was real too, for instance. there have also been sufficient motives to assume that not all we know is true, and not all that is true is also known to us. if this were not the case, the vatican would hold no secrets. also, we know that scriptures and such are extensively edited through the ages.
    second: judging the first few years of scientology for instance its not impossible for a spiritual leader (of whatever level) to be revered and worshipped during its lifetime, and claiming to be of divine origin. it does not mean he is that, or isnt. google The Bare-faced messiah, on L Ron Hubbard.
    another logical failure: if jesus was a common name there, you think it would be more than likely that in nazareth there were several guys named jesus? all named jesus of nazareth?
    i also find it quite funny to see that reference to the vote on J s divinity. one does not choose such a thing: it either is or isnt. and finally: to have a proper scholarly scientific research, you have to allow yourself the room for being wrong, and of real and honest self-directed critisism. unfortunately, hardcore “believers” lack that, precisely because of the strength of their conviction. research, when done properly is done with an open mind, not with a truth or a belief already in mind.

  48. Prayson you the man,
    I had previous discussions of the Mithra/Jesus copycat claim a while back with someone. I know the sources below listed have no historical/documents to back that the ‘roman’ version mithra existed before The Christ. I researched these sources, and found some info. Even though I know they are not creditable, wanted to know if you know anything more about them. As what I found they were all heretics..
    thanks and bless!

    Quotes from the ‘well circulated’ mithra myth:

    Reverend Charles Biggs stated: “The disciples of Mithra formed an organized church, with a developed hierarchy. They possessed the ideas of Mediation, Atonement, and a Savior, who is human and yet divine, and not only the idea, but a doctrine of the future life. They had a Eucharist, and a Baptism, and other curious analogies might be pointed out between their system and the church of Christ (The Christian Platonists, p. 240).”

    The Christian Father Manes, founder of the sect known as Manicheans, believed that Christ and Mithra were one. His teaching, according to Mosheim, was as follows: “Christ is that glorious intelligence which the Persians called Mithras … His residence is in the sun” (Ecclesiastical History, 3rd century, Part 2, ch. 5)

    Reverend J. W. Lake states: “Mithras is spiritual light contending with spiritual darkness, and through his labors the kingdom of darkness shall be lit with heaven’s own light; the world will be redeemed to God. The impure are to be purified, and the evil made good, through the mediation of Mithras. Mithras is the Good, his name is Love. In relation to the Eternal he is the source of grace, in relation to man he is the life-giver and mediator”

  49. Pingback: Pow! There Goes Mithra-Myth Down « With All I Am

  50. I see that you are still willing to be led by false illusions and a failure to see truth so I leave you to it. May you find truth soon.
    BTW they did vote on the divinity of J. as well as whether or not to make him a son of God. anyway fare well

    • Dear Rogers,

      It is my prayer that you will find the truth. I have not found the whole truth, I am still seeking, delighting and enjoying the heights, widths and depths of knowledge of whom Christ Jesus is and the love of God, justice, wrath, holiness and mercy.

      Rogers, with my heart, mind and soul, will I plea with you to keep on searching, try to read the Historical documents as the were in their time, read church History beginning with A.D 60’s, read Gospel of John, test your presuppositions, and hold to what is true, and if God will, He will lead you to himself.

      In Christ Jesus,
      Prayson

  51. Greetings again;

    You take too much for granted, much of which is patently false. If you go back to Constantine in the year 325 (approx.), and read the story of the Council of Nicene, and of the various other councils relating to judgements and the establishment of laws you will realize that. The Nicene council voted on the divinity of Jesus, as well as many other things regarding what they wished to accept. Constantine was a worshiper of the sun god, (Mithras), and adopted many other religious articles from all the religions he had any knowledge of into one religion, which is the “Christianity” of today’s church. How old is the worship of what people call “Christmas”? Read Jeremiah 10 and 11. Sounds amazing like a xmas tree. God says do NOT learn the way of the nations, to serve Him that way. Read Is. 7 in the original Hebrew. It has nothing to do with Jesus, but is only about things that will affect King Ahaz’s reign. (note: in the Hebrew it reads that a young woman who is already with child will give birth, and by the time the child is old enough to choose between good and evil, certain things will occur. It has nothing to do with virgin birth or anything else like that.) One more thing, Christianity is just another one of the “Mystery ” religions that came out of Babylon and other areas arond the world. And yes, you can make claims that Constantine was after Jesus, but the facts remain, that the worship of savior gods, many with very similar stories predate Christianity, and that the modern church is carrying the same torch for all of them.

    • Dear Rogers,

      Council of Nicene was not “voting” on divinity of Jesus but the nature of Jesus. Was Jesus, homoousion “one substance(similar) with God the Father(Jesus, the Son) or homoouson “a substance like the God the Father”.

      Constantine wanted the church to make up their mind since one of the Bishop, Arian was teaching the Jesus was a lesser god, causing a lot of problems.

      So it false echoing Dan Browns mistakes.

      More over there is much proof that Christians worshiped Jesus as God. From the Letters of Paul of Tarsus, Early Church Fathers before Council of Nicene and Extra-Biblical documents, example; Gaius Caecilius Cilo(61 AD – ca. 112 AD) also known as Pliny the Younger letter:

      They affirmed, however, the whole of their guilt, or their error, was, that they were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.(Letter 96, To the Emperor Trajan)

      Early Christians, including the Bishop who was teaching Jesus was lesser God, Arian worshiped Jesus. Only God according to Christianity ought to be worship.

      Thus it is you who is taking too much for granted, much of which is patently false.
      Sadly 🙂
      In Christ Jesus,
      Prayson

  52. Greetings; You make an argument that contains a few errors…first of all is that there is historical evedence of a treaty between the Hittites and Aryan nations many centuries before the birth of the one known as Jesus. The Aryan nations were worshippers of Mithras, and it spread throughout the persian world and later into the Roman world. There is also evidence that as Jay pointed out the Tarsus with a hub of Mithraism before the birth of Paul and after. In addition to this is the additional fact that there remains to this day, an underground trmple site in Rome under the Vatican. The wafers the church uses, the cap of the pope, the way the church is laid out and the fact there are Mithraic symbols on the “throne” of the pope invalidate your theories. One can also find evidence of at least 10 other “savior gods” with similar stories dating back to 1700 BCE. Oh yeah one more minor point, the magi were followers of the Zoroastrian cult according to the encyclopedia, which is related to Mithraism.

    • Greetings L Rogers,

      Reading Christianity terminologies(i.e Savior, Lord Supper) into other religions and coming out surprised at similarities, is scholarly wrong. It is like claiming September 11,(911) attack on USA was done because of Nine One One(911) Police emergence call.

      In deed Mithra worshiping and many other gods worshiping was before Christ Jesus, the problem is, Copy-Cat set claims which are Historically and Logically false.

      Historically False:
      None of the 19th century scholars or modern skeptics produced a Historical documents before Christianity that states what Copy-Cat theory claims. All we have from Modern skeptics is a quote of a quote of a 19th century German scholars. None is pointing to an original document or a copy of original document or a copy of a copy of a copy of original document to which they got their knowledge of Christian copying from other myth.

      It is after Christianity that other religions records things close to Christianity to which I will argue that, that is the evidence of spread and influence of a then, fast growing movement, Christianity.

      Logically False:

      Even if there are similarities, it is logically false to claim A copied from B. Similarities does not entail copying.

      To that Copy-Cat is a failure and dead in Today’s academia but alive in free world of some atheists and new age spiritual bloggers 🙂

      In Christ Jesus,
      Prayson

  53. You know Prayson,i have contacted hundreds of apologetics but never as much on the copy-cat theory as i have sent you,but you take the cake of being the dumbest,ignorant,unintelligent one i have run across.In the first place there were hundreds of links in the ce document i sent you,and a dozen or more quotes from ancient documents with footnotes of where you could find them with a little research and you send back in less than an hour that i sent nothing,and it would take you days to research what i sent,you are stupidily mind controlled that only you are correct.Here a few excerpts from the CE that they verified about Mithra that are the same things from the beginings of christianity that is at least in the Catholic church,they admit Mithra was Mediator just like Christ,the bull was sacrificed to resolve sin,a struggle in heaven between good and evil,just like God and Satan,absetetention from food(a fast),immortality of the soul,just like christians,souls dragged off to hell at the end of the world,just as Revealation claims,a Eucharist just like christianity,a father they called Pater Patrum(Peter) just like catholic fathers,they observed Sunday as a holy day just like christians,Dec.25th.as his birthday,they wore garb similar to catholics to their services,Mithra will descend from heaven kill a bull at the end of the world and sacrifice it and bestow Imortality on the people just like Revelation clims,Mithra had sun priests just like catholics have priests,their Pater could only be married one time,the catholic pope can not be married at all,the CE admits Christ was born in a cave at first,it admits Mithraism was observed in the Roman Empire back in B.C.
    Your documents you wanted are in what i sent you just did not bother researching and investigating,you want me to do your work for you and send a full document in one piece.All the above came from the Catholic Encyclopedia,not from 19th.century claims or atheist sites.I am not going to hem-haw around with you anymore i am going to say it plain you are one of these two,either biblically mind controlled or stupid,ignorant,unintelligent,have no brain at all.I have no intention of corresponding with such ignorance anymore,you a scholar or apologetic,laugh,laugh,laugh.Goodbye.
    Jay Osborne

    • Ad hominem will not further be tolerate 😦 but I will let your last comment stand 🙂

      Catholic Encyclopedia is not a source before A.D 30 Jay!

      You have not produce any original, or copy of, of copy of original document that support your position(even of where CE found their information).

      🙂 Stop pouring empty claims, back them up 🙂 Show us where you got(or the author you quoted or CE) got their information from?

      In Christ Jesus:
      Prayson

      • Man, you actually managed to outlast this living archetype of the sputtering, copy-pasting, religiously zealous atheist. And never once did you retaliate with insults or the banhammer, no matter how well-deserved.

        You, Prayson Daniel, have the patience of a Saint.

        Respect. :brofist:

  54. MITHRA
    Mithra precedes the Christ myth by at least 600 years. Mithra is found in the Indian Vedic religion as “Mitra” which is 3,500 years old. Much to the chagrin of Christians, there is much evidence that shows that Mithraism was around before Christianity. For example: According to Plutarch, a Greek biographer and Neo-Platonist philosopher, the worship of Mithras was first absorbed by the Romans around 70 B.C.E during Pompey’s campaign against Cicilian pirates. Mithra can be found to have been worshiped throughout Europe being that there are monuments to Mithra found everywhere from Scotland to India.
    There were so many similarities between Christianity and Mithraism that early Church Fathers such as Tertullian and Justin Martyr claimed that Satan had, in anticipation of the coming of Jesus Christ, created a false religion that shared many of the same rituals, traditions and beliefs in Christianity, concerning not only practices in worship but indentical traditions usually accredited to Jesus Christ such as the resurrection so that people would be tricked into believing that all Christianity was was a plagarisation of prior pagan beliefs. As absurd as this explanation is, it serves to show that Mithraism was not an plagarisation of Christianity but was there prior to Christianity.

    Also, it is erroneously claimed that there were never any written records of Mithraism but the reality of it is, is that most evidence of Mithraism was destroyed by the Christians including not only monuments and many other artifacts but many books by ancient authors, such as Eubulus, who had written many volumes on the history of Mithraism!

    Also, another thing that proves that Mithraism was around before Christianity was the discovery of Mithraic remains beneath later Christian edifices on Vatican Hill.

    The following is taken out of the Catholic Encyclopedia by Joseph Wheless in his ever valuable book “Forgery in Christianity”(the words of Wheless are inbetween the parenthesis): “Mithraism is a pagan religion consisting mainly of the cult of the ancient Indo-Iranian Sun-God Mithra. It entered Europe from Asia Minor after Alexander’s conquest, spread rapidly over the whole Roman Empire at the beginning of our era, reached its zenith during the third century, and vanished under the repressive regulations of Theodosius at the end of the fourth, [Of late it has been] brought into prominence mainly because of its supposed [?] similarity to Christianity.

    “The origin of the cult of Mithra dates from the time that Hindus and Persians still formed one people, for the god Mithra occurs in the religion and sacred books of both races, i.e. in the Vedas and in the Avesta. … After the conquest of Babylon (538 B.C.) this Persian cult came into contact with Chaldean astrology and with the national worship of Marduk. For a time the two priesthood of Mithra and Marduk coexisted in the capital and Mithraism borrowed much from this intercourse. … This religion, in which the Iranian element remained predominant, came, after Alexander’s conquest, in touch with the Western world. When finally the Romans took possession of the Kingdom of Pergamum (in 133 B.C.), occupied Asia Minor, and stationed two legions of soldiers on the Euphrates, the success of Mithraism was secured. It spread rapidly from the Bosphorus to the Atlantic, from Illyria to Britain. Its foremost apostles were the legionaries; hence it spread first to the frontier stations of the Roman army.

    “Mithraism was emphatically a soldier religion; Mithra, its hero, was especially a divinity of fidelity, manliness, and bravery; the stress it laid on good-fellowship and brotherliness, its exclusion of women, and the secret bond among its members have suggested the idea that Mithraism was Masonry among the Roman soldiery.” Several of the Roman Emperors, down to Licinius, colleague of Constantine, built temples to Mithra, and issued coins with his symbols. “But with the triumph of Christianity [after Constantine] Mithraism came to a sudden end. The laws of Theodosius [proscribing it under penalty of death, to please the Christians] signed its death warrant. Though he was still worshiped a thousand years later by the Manichees (p. 402). …

    “Ahura Mazda and Ahriman. — This incarnate evil (Ahriman) rose; with the army of darkness to attack and depose Oromasdes (Ahura Mazda) They were however thrown back into hell, whence they escape, wander over the face of the earth and afflict man. … As evil spirits ever lie in wait for hapless man, he needs a friend and savior, who is Mithra. … Mithra is the Mediator between God and Man. The Mithraists… battled on Mithra’s side against all impurity, against all evil within and without. They believed in the immortality of the soul; sinners after death were dragged down to hell; the just passed through the seven spheres of the planets, leaving at each planet a part of their lower humanity until, as pure spirits, they stood before God. At the end of the world Mithra will desectid to earth, … and will make all drink the beverage of immortality. He will thus have proved himself Nabarses, ‘the never conquered.’ …

    “The fathers conducted the worship. The chief of the fathers, a sort of pope, who always lived at Rome, was called ‘Pater Patratus’ … The members below the grade of pater called one another ‘brother,’ and social distinctions were forgotten in Mithraic unity. … A sacred meal was celebrated of bread and haoma juce for which in the West wine was substituted. This meal was supposed to give the participants supernatural virtue. …

    “Three times a day prayer was offered the sun towards east, south, or west according to the hour. SUNDAY was kept holy in honor of Mithra, and the sixteenth of each month was sacred to him as Mediator. The 25 December was observed as his birthday, the Natalis Invictis, the rebirth of the winter-sun, unconquered by the rigors of the season.” (pp. 403-104.) It may be noted that Sunday was made a Pagan holiday by edict of Constantine, In the fifth Tablet of the Babylonian (Chaldean) Epic of Creation, by the great God Marduk, we read, lines 17 and 18: “On the seventh day he appointed a holy day, And to cease from all work he commanded.” (Records of the Past, vol. ix; quoted, Clarke, Ten Great Religions, ii, p. 383.)

    To resume with CE.: “No proof of immorality or obscene practices has ever been established against Mithraism; and as far as can be ascertained, or rixther conjectured, it had an elevating and invigorating effect on its followers. [So different from Christianity!] …

    “Relation to Christianity. — A similarity between Mithra and Christ struck even early observers, such as Justin, Tertullian, and other Fathers, and in recent times has been urged to prove that Christianity is but an adaptation of Mithraism, or at least the outcome of the same religious ideas and aspirations. Some apparent [they are very apparent] similarities exist; but in a number of details — [it is substance that is identical] — it is quite as probable that Mithraism was the borrower from Christianity. — [But these essential identities are found in the Vedas and Avesta, of maybe two thousand years before Christianity; Zoroaster, who, gave final form to the creed, lived some 600 years before the Christ!] — It is not unnatural to suppose that a religion which swept the whole world, should have been copied at least in some details by another religion which was quite popular daring the third century — [and for nine, Or twenty centuries before!] Similarity in words and names means nothing; it is the sense that matters. [To be sure; we proceed to see more of the sense, — the essence — to be identical] …

    “Mithra is called a mediator; and so is Christ … And so in similar instances. Mithraism had a Eucharist, but the idea of the sacred banquet is as old as the human race and existed at all ages and amongst all peoples. — [Not much “divine revelation” in this greatest of Christian mysteries!]. Mithra saved the world by sacrificing a bull — [just as the Jews saved themselves] Christ by sacrificing himself. … Mithraism was all comprehensive and tolerant of every other cult; Christianity was essentially exclusive, condemning every other religion in the world, alone and unique in its majesty.” (CE. x, 402-404.)

    As for the similarities between Mithra, Mithraism, Jesus and Christianity:

    Mithra was born on December 25th sometimes in a stable or cave but traditionally from a rock. The emperor Aurelian declared December 25 to be the official birthday of Mithra, circa 270 CE, even attended by shepards who brought gifts.
    Mithra was a traveling teacher.

    Mithra had 12 disciples.

    He performed Miracles.

    He was buried in a tomb.

    In three days he was resurrected.

    He was called the “Good Shepard”.

    He was considered “”the Way, the Truth and the Light, the Redeemer, the Savior, the Messiah.”

    His sacred day was Sunday.

    His resurrection was celebrated on Easter.

    He had a Last Supper when he returned to his father. Also called the Eucharist or the Lord’s Supper.

    He was believed not to have died, but to have ascended to heaven where it was believed he would return at the end of time where he would judge the living and the dead.

    He granted immortal life of his followers through baptism.

    Followers of Mithra were lead by a ‘papa’, the Greek word for ‘father’ and what ‘pope’ is derived from,who ruled on Vatican Hill in Rome.

    Followers of Mithra celebrated “sacramenta”, a consecrated bread and wine, using chanting, incense,bells, candles and holy water just as is found in the Catholic Mass.

    Quotes:

    “The devil, whose business is to pervert the truth, mimics the exact circumstances of the Divine Sacraments…Thus he celebrates the oblation of bread, and brings in the symbol of the resurrection. Let us therefore acknowledge the craftiness of the devil, who copies certain things of those that be Divine.”-Tertullian in the late 2nd century C.E., describing the similarities between Christianity and Mithraism.

    “He who will not eat of my body and drink of my blood, so that he will be made on with me and I with him, the same shall not know salvation.”- NO this isn’t John 6:53-54. Its actually an inscription to Mithras.

    On Mithraism

    • Pasting more empty claims is not producing the source of your authors information 🙂 You did not name even one document but a quotes of quote of another authors.

      Were is the document to which your authors get their information? We want the source, not the second hand speculation of the source 🙂

      The above comment falls into the same hole “More empty claims” 🙂

      Again, the question stand as a rock! Please give us a document to which you(and they whom you quoted) got their information from. Or are we just dancing to your more and more empty claims?”

  55. Prayson,
    In a couple of pastes i will send separatly i am going to send you irfutable proof that Mithra was before christianity in the Roman Empire(before christianity).Neither of these are from 19th.century writers,from one of them i get updates 2-3 times a month.I want you to take note that footnotes or links in some of them are from writings before 100A.D.and some point to writings in B.C.it is up to you to research those footnotes,links or quotes that tell where for you to find them,after all if i typed them out you would just say it was my theory and deny everything as you have all through my correspondence with you.Here are a few notes on some things that will be in them.
    #1.The historian Plutarch sys that in 67 B.C.when the Roman Legions fought the pirates of Cilcia the pirates were worshipping Mithra and the Roman Legions(military)broght back with them to the Roman Empire the Mithra belief.So that is well before christianity.#2.There was a big surge of Mithra belief in early 1-A.D you’ll find that in what i send and of course that is before chritianity.#3.John 6:53-54 comes from a Mithra inscription before christianity.#4.Celsus tells us that in Mithraic mysteries the soul moved through 7 solar phases similar to Pergatory.#5.from my research the claim that Mithra was born of a rock actually means he was born in cave like most of the sun god myths claim,the cave symbolizing the mothers womb,if you study hard you will find the first claims of Jesus being born he was born in a cave,later that was changed to manager.#6.The slaying of the bull in Mithra meant the bull dying for the sins of the world or Salvation just like Jesus.Study these pastes they definately without a doubt prove you and christianity wrong claiming Mithra copied off of christianity.Study,think.
    Jay

    • Hej Jay,

      It is a fact that Mithraism, a militant cult, that worshiped Mithra, was before Christianity, but that is not the point here. Before Christianity, no record of Mithra being born of a virgin, but chopped out of a rock as a FULL grown person.

      The slaying of the bull in Mithraism has nothing to do with forgiveness of sin. According to Reinhold Merkelbach, the text found in India sets “Mitra reluctantly participates in the sacrifice of a god named Soma, who often appears in the shape of a white bull or of the moon.” while in Roman,”On the Roman monuments, Mithra reluctantly sacrifices the white bull, who is then transformed into the moon. This detailed parallel seems to prove that the sacrifice must have been pre-Zoroastrian.”(“Mithraism.” Encyclopædia Britannica. Encyclopædia Britannica Online. Encyclopædia Britannica, 2011. Web. 24 Jan. 2011. )

      Thus from this, If we are to see the supposed parallelism, Jesus ought to be sacrificing another god, and not Him being sacrificed.

      Well Jay, you have added another forced-parallelism, another empty claim 🙂

      As I asked “Please give us a document to which you(and they whom you quoted) got their information from. Or are we just dancing to your more and more empty claims?”

  56. As i said you will get your proof when you send your proof,i am not going to waste my time answering anything else about documentation untill then,all beating around the bush on that subject is over.You no good and well there is not one iota of proof of Jesus from the first century the time your N.T.says your Jesus was here on earth,that’s why you try to avoid it by using the christian bait and switch tactic.You have not answered dozens of things i have brought up including the ancient statues and artifacts of sun gods known beyond the shadow of a doubt that they are earlier than christianity.Absolutely not is the burden of proof on me,you claim Jesus is a historical person prove it.There is not one iota of reliable proof that a flesh and blood Jesus ever walked this earth any half way intelligent person doing a little research should have sense enough to know there is ZERO reliable proof.
    Christianity has waited 2000 years for it’s Jesus to supoposedly return return to earth he hasn’t and won’t in another million years,except when the sun comes up in the morning,your Jesus is a sun god which can be proved many ways if one is not biblically mind controlled.biblically brainwashed and blind faithed.I spent 32 years of my life in chritianity so i know about it’s mind control,now i have spent 18 more years researching and disproving it.Give me proof of a flesh and blood Jesus from the first century or shut up and move to another subject,evidence and proof mean nothing to a mind controlled person like yourself you must prove it to yourself through long research hours and let the chips fall where they may.
    Jay

    • Redherrings 🙂 Jay, you are the one holding the Copy-Cat Theory. You are affirming that Christians copy the story from pagan. I am denying it. Thus the burden of proof is on your side.

      Turning the table around will not rescue you for not doing your homework on Mithra. Remember, the Article is about Christian accused of coping the story from Mithra Myth, and not “Is Jesus Historical figure?”. Thus in this part, the burden of proof is on those who say Yes, Christian copied the story 🙂

      You keep on saying Jesus is a sun god and it can be proven in many ways yet you do not produce one shred evidence.

      What you pasted, is a old fallacious speculative theory which was popular in Germany in 19th century which none has produce evidence, or one single document before A.D 30 that support the theory.

      Thus a burden of proof, sadly remain on your shoulders Jay:

      Please give us a document to which they got their information. Or are we just dancing to your more and more empty claims? 🙂

  57. I am getting pretty sick of you asking for documentation,WHEN YOU HAVE SENT ZERO DOCUMENTATION OF A HISTORICAL,MIRACLE WORKER,CRUCIFIED AND RESURRECTED FROM THE DEAD JESUS FROM THE FIRST CENTURY.I tell you what i will send documents as soon as you send yours.Have you ever looked at statues and artifacts of Baccus,Dionysus,Mithra,Ishtar and thousands of other sun god’s before christianity,they tell a story without words,most of them show a similar statue of a mother holding a child identical to the ones from the Catholic church which shows the same statue of Mary holding the supposed baby Jesus,some are shown crucified on a cross.A Catholic church in Italy is built on top of a Mithraic cave like church which still has the Mithra inscriptions on it’s walls of customs now in christianity.Jesus pictures(not exact photo)always show a halo around his head depicting him as originally being a sun god,if you can;t figure this out without me sending documents which are lost or destroyed you have no businessclaiming to be a scholar or having much intelligence,do 18 years of research like i did,that’s the only way you can prove it to yourself,because you deny obvious proofs from me.
    Jay

    • The Burden of proof is not on my side Jay. I do not have to give any evidence. You are getting pretty sick because you did not produce any proof for your position.

      Please give us a document to which they got their information. Or do you just have more claims without proof! 🙂

    • Jay ,You are a disgruntled ex-christian. And obviously a fool and miserable at that.
      You actually believe you have uncovered proof that billions of people have been tricked up until now that savior Jay has appeared to rescue them. I know many just like you. All miserable,bitter, angry, and insulting fools.

      • Joe Torse,
        So i am a fool,miserable,a disgruntled ex christian,,bitter,angry and an insulting fool?Prayson would say if you directed these insults to him that you are using ad homien to attack the person not the subject,because you gave no proof whatsoever about the subject.So that makes you the bitter,miserable angry fool.I use to think (actually non-thinkinng)like you that all of these billions of christians could not be wrong,but then i found none of you have ever deeply researched your belief or faith you just swallowed the 4 gospel Jesus,N.T.tale hook line and sinker.
        I am not a bit miserable,angry or a fool,from hundreds of hours of investigation and research i know there is not one iota of reliable proof that a miracle worker,crucified and resurrected from the dead Jesus ever walked on this earth as a flesh and blood person.I only write christian sites to hopefully make someone think and start a serious research and realize there is no reliable proof of Jesus ever existing as a flesh and blood person.The Roman Empire needed a state religion to control the different nationalities it governed over,christianity was Constantine’s answer for this problem.Even after making christianity a state religion around 325 A.D.Constantine continued to worship Sol Invictus(a sun god)until his death bed when he was finally babtized into the christian religion,and he did that only to further and help the Roman Empire state religion.Then the Roman Catholic church took over and murdered millions of people who would not accept christianity.The Roman Catholic church enforced the christian religion upon the population until it finally was accepted by tradition to be true.
        Generation after generation finally accepted the Jesus tale under the threat of death until now when children just accept without thinking and proving what their parents believed.Joe if you are going to condemn me do it through proof and evidence not slander.Until then you need to keep your non-thinking faith theory to yourself.
        Jay

        • Thanks Jay,

          The aim of the list was to show you that if we appeal to authority, your position is sadly rejected in academia. Your faith in Murdock is religious. She failed to produce primary sources and I hope you could help her 🙂

          I will be here waiting for you to produce primary sources and show the validity of copy-cat reasoning. Know that you are always welcome.

          In Christ,
          Prayson

          • Your appeals to academic authority as proof or evidence for a historical Jesus is comnpletely worthless,because none can prove the miracle worker,crucified and resurrected Jesus,all they can do is give their opinions and theorys,just like you do.Acharya S has proof you can sink your teeth in not just theories and guesses,she makes you guys supposed proof look like an amateur.And that is logical because you have ZERO proof.Absolutely none, all you have is supposed proof writen by no one knows who wrote it,that is the 4 gospels,filled with inconsistences,contradictions and obvious lies to anyone not biblically mind controlled..I to am waiting for your documentation from the first century for your Jesus,not second century supposed proof which is well after the supposed crucifixtion and resurrection which gives christianity plenty of time to add to the Jesus tale.
            Prayson people like you making excuses of why Philo didn’t write about Jesus when he wrote about the Jewish religion and Gailee is pure utter ignorance.He lived completely through Jesus supposed time on earth,had kin he visited often in Jerusalem and you know he spent a lot of time in Jerusalem since he wrote about the Jewish religion and the area of Galilee.Then apologetics like yourself try to make excuses that Jesus was not well known even though he supposedly by your own N.T.was followed by multitudes,and you know Philo would have known about the supposed earthquake and sun darkening had it actually have happened,all apologetics including yourself only show a pure lack of intelligence with these ignorant excuses.
            Not only did no contemporary historian or philosopher write about Jesus the miracle worker,neither do they record the Slaughter of the Innocents,not even Josephus who wrote a lot about Herod’s atrocities knows anything about Herod slaughtering up to 2 year olds,neither do they know about all the saints supposedly resurrecting and wandering around in the streets of Jerusalem,nor do they know anything about 12 desciples or Paul who supposedly did so many wonderous things begining the christian religion.You are believing fairy tales developed later by the Roman Empire and even later by the Roman Catholic church.Your arguments and theories are laughable by any thinking person.Christianity not only copied from paganism it is paganism.Christ mythers have far more proof than you do and they have common sense which you and other apologetics have ZERO common sense nor any evidence or proof of a historical Jesus.Your arguments are worthless and ignorant.
            JAY

          • Dear Jay,

            I believe you misunderstood with the scholars. You named Achary S as your authority and I wrote if we appeal our case on scholarly work, your position is rejected in academia.

            Remember that the burden of proof is on you. You affirm that Christian copied Mithraism, so you have to make your case. All I am asking is for you to produce the primary sources of your belief and present a logical case.

            So far you have failed to do so and by your own words you admitted that you could not, in October last year.

            On the other hand, I show you that there are no evidences( primary sources) to back up your position. The primary sources on Mithra that we have refutes copy-cat theory. And even if we had the primary sources that had similar narrative as pf Christ, it is still logically fallacious( remember the Titanic example).

            Let us try to reach the bottom of this: Should I produce primary sources, Mitra “manuscripts”, so we could read the primary sources together and see if your position hold historically and logically?

            In Christ,
            Prayson

          • Prayson i know how badly you want to claim defeat of me,but this debate is going nowhere.All you want to talk about is the copy-cat theory,but without your historical Jesus which you can’t prove it is silly to argue about the copy-cat theory,if he didn’t exist as a flesh and blood person it is ignorant to pursue the copy-cat theory.You say since i make the claim that christianity copied paganism that i have to furnish the burden of proof,well since it is based on Jesus which you claim was a historical person you have the burden of proof to furnish the evidence to me that he existed.Of course you can’t do that,because there is none.Also you should practice telling the truth once in awhile and not twist what i say,i did not say Acharya S was my authority,i actually said she was not my authority that i dug out piece by piece the copy-cat theory and the historical Jesus i put many,many pieces together.I read your claimed scholars and your academia but i use my own mind and other sources to come to a serious conclussion.
            Why should i believe scholars and apologetics when it is obvious and easy to pick out the lies.Just like your claim of eyewitnesses to the crucifixtion and resurrection there are no eyewitnesses claimed in the 4 gospels,so i know you and other apologetics are liars.I can look at N.T.manuscripts from the third century(earliest)and N.T.manuscripts from the 5th.century and see things that have been interpolated(added)to the 5th.century supposed Holy word of God,so again i know you guys are lying.I look at the prophecies the gospels(especially Matthew) claim Jesus fulfilled,but when i look at them in the O.T.i find they were never prophecies to begin with,a word or verse is pulled out of context and merely made to seem Jesus prophecy fulfilled.
            Apologetics and biblical scholars lie and cover up hundreds if not thousands of plain and simple biblical contradictions,discrepancies and many outright lies in the Bible,so why the hell should i believe you and mind control myself like i once was.I wouldn’t believe you if your tongue was notirized,because i know you are liars.I don’t need Acharya S or any atheist or skeptic to know you are liars,because you lie about your own supposed Holy Word,your Bible.You have no source no historical evidence no nothing to prove a historical Jesus,that is the miracle worker,crucified and resurrected Jesus.You also have a poor memory,i think it was Todd that blew your Titanic theory to hell,but you could never understand how he did it so now you try to throw your Titanic theory at me again.By the way the belief in hell also comes from paganism.
            You can never defeat me i have to much proof and evidence than you do.So give it up and stop lying about it.
            JAY

          • Dear Jay,

            Historical Jesus is another subject.I gave you links above, if you wish to discuss pick one and I will be happy to discuss it there. But here the case is not Historica Jesus, but did the Christian copied from Mithraism.

            Trying to change the subject to historical Jesus is a red herring. I wish to remain on topic at hand, because that is what we are dealing with viz. Did or didnot Christian copied Mithraism? You affirm they did, and all I have being asking, for almost year now, is for you to produce primary sourses for your faith.

            You have failed to do so, and you admitted that in October. This debate is going no where because you failed to produce primary sources and show how the copy-cat theory reasoning fit in.

            My offer still stand, viz. Should I offer primary sources of Mithraism for us to read together and see your position hostorically and logically?

            In Christ,
            Prayson

            Btw: When you base your claim on another author, she beame an authority, in that particular subject. It was not Todd but Prezzy, and he attacked a strawman, not the Titanic illustration 🙂

          • Prayson why would i want to go to your link on a historical Jesus,whether you liked it or not we have already been through it on your Mithra link.There is no use going through a thick head like you who is always the only one correct.What you do is base your thinking on scholarly academic work from mostly biblical biased thinking.You have no logical common sense approach it is all based on supposed PHD’s findings who are either biased or do not want to offend christianity.Your sources come from the same idiots that jumped on the band wagon before it was dis-proved the Shroud of Turin,James burial box,a tomb found that was some Joseph’s tomb and claimed it was the biblical Joseph’s family tomb,and houses and artifacts from the first century in Nazareth,plus a bath house from the first century,plus lamps supposedly from the first century in Nazareth which all turned out to be faked artifacts and the house, bath,and lamps were not from the first century Nazareth.Apologetics and many supposed PHD scholars still leave these things on their sites as proof even though it has now been proved they were fakes and from the wrong century.
            These biblically biased PHD’s in archaeology,history e.t.c.these liars you believe and expect me to believe.I research both sides and believe only the honest ones.You may not have heard but there is a claim right recently that they have found a fragment from the book of John from the first century,this to will turn out to be not dated correctly,but that won’t stop christian apologetics and biblical claimed scholars to jump on it as truth,and it won’t be.Do you guys take back your fraudelent claims and re-post and re-correct when you are proved wrong,no you don’t you continue with the same lies.There are christian sites all over the internet claiming first century proof that the town of Nazareth existed in the first century,but archaeologists have dug for over 100 years in the vicinity of Nazareth and have nothing from the first century.
            Catholic archaeologists had claimed for years to have found lamps and other artifacts in Nazareth from the first century,but then honest archaeologists finally examined them and found the catholics had post dated and pre dated the very same artifacts.There is nothing honest that comes from biblical archaeologists who dig with a Bible in one hand and a spade in the other hand.The same goes for your biblical PHD’s they toss by the wayside anything dis-agreeing with Bible claims.The town of Nazareth did not exist in the first century as your N.T.lies and says.So these dis-honest PHD’s and archaeologists you want me to believe like you do,i use my own mind and look for the honest truth not from your apologetic con artists.You are also a con-artist there is plenty of proof even in what i sent that Mithraism preceded christianity by at least 1500 years and was in the Roman military and higher ups at least by 80 to 100 B.C.A Catholic church built on top of a Mithra temple(cavern) in Italy proves by itself that Mithraism was first,but apologetics like you learn to lie and con your way around it,were i you i’d be ashamed to tell such lies in the name of your Jesus.You have been well proved by me that you are incorrect and a liar both on Mithra and a historical Jesus.Todd could see i was right,but a biblical mind controlled,biblical brainwashed,blind faith person such as yourself can not see the forest for the trees.A non-historical Jesus is not a Red Herring for your Mithra link,it fits in perfectly you have been taught to be a con-artist apologetic so you want to stay on one subject Mithra for fear your memory might say something contradictory that you have on your historical Jesus link.Prayson all you are is a dis-honest con-artist,you have zero proof that Mithraism copied christianity just a con around obvious plain and simple proofs that actually christianity copied Mithraism,you are a crooked con-artist when you claim proof of a historical Jesus when there is not one shred,not one iota of reliable proof the miracle worker,crucified and resurrected Jesus ever walked this earth as a flesh and blood person.You,King David,J.P.Holding are the slickest liars in the apologetic field in my opinion,my opinion being you 3 are the slickest liars.Just look how great a category i put you in.
            JAY

          • O dear! Where is my kind Jay? Thank you for attacking my personality 🙂

            Say I agree that I am liar and I am thickheaded brainwashed Bible fool, how do you explain atheists and skeptic who also refute your position(http://conspiracies.skepticproject.com/)?

            I explained why I do not buy you trying to change the subject to historical Jesus. Red herring happens when some irrelevant issue is raised which diverts attention from the main subject.

            The main subject is: Did Christian copied Mithraism? You are raising historical Jesus to divert attention from failing to produce evidences for your belief. Lets put first things first and second things second.

            As Copy-cat apologist, you failed to produced evidences(primary sources) and failed to show how similarities entail copying.

            Your blind thick Bible brainwashed friend 🙂

            In Christ,
            Prayson

      • Dear Jay and Joe,

        Thank you for both your comments.

        Joe, if you are a Christian, you know that we are called to love, be patient, and in gentleness give reasons(1 Peter 3:15) to what we believe. Jay is correct that your address was an ad hominem. We should not address his character but his position.

        Remember we are to focus on what is at hand viz. did Christian copied Mithraism? Jay has not presented his evidences to answer yes, they did. I showed him that most of the seemly similar narrative are false and even if true, its is logically fallacious to deduce what a copy-cat apologist wish to claim. Copy-cat theory is historically and logically false.

        The four gospels, existence of Jesus, Constantine et cetera are red herrings, sadly, on this topic, Jay, because the case is whether Christians copied from Mithraism or not.

        If you wish, I have a lot of articles in this blog dealing with those questions. Here are few:

        1. Contemporary Scholarship and the Historical Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ
        2. Easter: Myth, Hallucination, or History?
        3. Did Josephus Refer to Jesus?
        4. Evidence for the Resurrection of Christ
        5.The Historicity of the Empty Tomb of Jesus
        6. Visions of Jesus: A Critical Assessment of Gerd Lüdemann’s Hallucination Hypothesis

        I apologize for the ad hominem Jay. Patience, love, gentleness is our road Joe.

        Thank you both.
        In Christ,
        Prayson

        • Prayson,i realize you like to stick with your subject that christianity did not copy from Mithraism and so you try to avoid the subject of a historical Jesus which actually proves the whole Jesus tale is a myth.And so i will make one more attempt to prove christianity did the copying.Maybe you don’t know it but most ancient before christianity pagan sun gods were claimed born in a cave,the cave symbolized a mothers womb.Did you know the earliest claims about Jesus birth actually claimed he was born in a cave outside of Bethlehem?You also should know most scholars say Mark was the first gospel writen,with this knowledge just look how much the gospels of Matthew,Luke & John have added to the original Jesus story.Below i am going to send a long copy and paste that proves without a doubt in an open mind wanting the truth that christianity copied off of Mithra and also other pagan sun gods.The links in it should work so click on “Jesus according to extra canonical sources”and read “The apcryphal life of Jesus.

          Copy and paste:(The following article is adapted from a chapter in Suns of God: Krishna, Buddha and Christ Unveiled, as well as excerpts from other articles, such as “The Origins of Christianity” and “The ZEITGEIST Sourcebook.”)

          “Both Mithras and Christ were described variously as ‘the Way,’ ‘the Truth,’ ‘the Light,’ ‘the Life,’ ‘the Word,’ ‘the Son of God,’ ‘the Good Shepherd.’ The Christian litany to Jesus could easily be an allegorical litany to the sun-god. Mithras is often represented as carrying a lamb on his shoulders, just as Jesus is. Midnight services were found in both religions. The virgin mother…was easily merged with the virgin mother Mary. Petra, the sacred rock of Mithraism, became Peter, the foundation of the Christian Church.”

          Gerald Berry, Religions of the World

          “Mithra or Mitra is…worshipped as Itu (Mitra-Mitu-Itu) in every house of the Hindus in India. Itu (derivative of Mitu or Mitra) is considered as the Vegetation-deity. This Mithra or Mitra (Sun-God) is believed to be a Mediator between God and man, between the Sky and the Earth. It is said that Mithra or [the] Sun took birth in the Cave on December 25th. It is also the belief of the Christian world that Mithra or the Sun-God was born of [a] Virgin. He travelled far and wide. He has twelve satellites, which are taken as the Sun’s disciples…. [The Sun’s] great festivals are observed in the Winter Solstice and the Vernal Equinox—Christmas and Easter. His symbol is the Lamb….”

          Swami Prajnanananda, Christ the Saviour and Christ Myth

          Because of its evident relationship to Christianity, special attention needs to be paid to the Persian/Roman religion of Mithraism. The worship of the Indo-Persian god Mithra dates back centuries to millennia preceding the common era. The god is found as “Mitra” in the Indian Vedic religion, which is over 3,500 years old, by conservative estimates. When the Iranians separated from their Indian brethren, Mitra became known as “Mithra” or “Mihr,” as he is also called in Persian.

          By around 1500 BCE, Mitra worship had made it to the Near East, in the Indian kingdom of the Mitanni, who at that time occupied Assyria. Mitra worship, however, was known also by that time as far west as the Hittite kingdom, only a few hundred miles east of the Mediterranean, as is evidenced by the Hittite-Mitanni tablets found at Bogaz-Köy in what is now Turkey. The gods of the Mitanni included Mitra, Varuna and Indra, all found in the Vedic texts.

          Mithra as Sun God
          The Indian Mitra was essentially a solar deity, representing the “friendly” aspect of the sun. So too was the Persian derivative Mithra, who was a “benevolent god” and the bestower of health, wealth and food. Mithra also seems to have been looked upon as a sort of Prometheus, for the gift of fire. (Schironi, 104) His worship purified and freed the devotee from sin and disease. Eventually, Mithra became more militant, and he is best known as a warrior.

          Like so many gods, Mithra was the light and power behind the sun. In Babylon, Mithra was identified with Shamash, the sun god, and he is also Bel, the Mesopotamian and Canaanite/ Phoenician solar deity, who is likewise Marduk, the Babylonian god who represented both the planet Jupiter and the sun. According to Pseudo-Clement of Rome’s debate with Appion (Homily VI, ch. X), Mithra is also Apollo.

          In time, the Persian Mithraism became infused with the more detailed astrotheology of the Babylonians and Chaldeans, and was notable for its astrology and magic; indeed, its priests or magi lent their very name to the word “magic.” Included in this astrotheological development was the re-emphasis on Mithra’s early Indian role as a sun god. As Francis Legge says in Forerunners and Rivals in Christianity:

          The Vedic Mitra was originally the material sun itself, and the many hundreds of votive inscriptions left by the worshippers of Mithras to “the unconquered Sun Mithras,” to the unconquered solar divinity (numen) Mithras, to the unconquered Sun-God (deus) Mithra, and allusions in them to priests (sacerdotes), worshippers (cultores), and temples (templum) of the same deity leave no doubt open that he was in Roman times a sun-god. (Legge, II, 240)

          By the Roman legionnaires, Mithra—or Mithras, as he began to be known in the Greco-Roman world—was called “the divine Sun, the Unconquered Sun.” He was said to be “Mighty in strength, mighty ruler, greatest king of gods! O Sun, lord of heaven and earth, God of Gods!” Mithra was also deemed “the mediator” between heaven and earth, a role often ascribed to the god of the sun.

          An inscription by a “T. Flavius Hyginus” dating to around 80 to 100 AD/CE in Rome dedicates an altar to “Sol Invictus Mithras”—”The Unconquered Sun Mithra”—revealing the hybridization reflected in other artifacts and myths. Regarding this title, Dr. Richard L. Gordon, honorary professor of Religionsgeschichte der Antike at the University of Erfurt, Thuringen, remarks:

          It is true that one…cult title…of Mithras was, or came to be, Deus Sol Invictus Mithras (but he could also be called… Deus Invictus Sol Mithras, Sol Invictus Mithras…

          …Strabo, 15.3.13 (p. 732C), basing his information on a lost work, either by Posidonius (ca 135-51 BC) or by Apollodorus of Artemita (first decades of 1 cent. BC), states baldly that the Western Parthians “call the sun Mithra.” The Roman cult seems to have taken this existing association and developed it in their own special way. (Gordon, “FAQ.” (Emph. added.))

          “Mithra is who the monuments proclaim him—the Unconquered Sun.”

          As concerns Mithra’s identity, Mithraic scholar Dr. Roger Beck says:

          Mithras…is the prime traveller, the principal actor…on the celestial stage which the tauctony [bull-slaying] defines…. He is who the monuments proclaim him—the Unconquered Sun. (Beck (2004), 274)

          In an early image, Mithra is depicted as a sun disc in a chariot drawn by white horses, another solar motif that made it into the Jesus myth, in which Christ is to return on a white horse. (Rev 6:2; 19:11)

          Mithra in the Roman Empire
          Subsequent to the military campaign of Alexander the Great in the fourth century BCE, Mithra became the “favorite deity” of Asia Minor. Christian writers Dr. Samuel Jackson and George W. Gilmore, editors of The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge (VII, 420), remark:

          It was probably at this period, 250-100 b.c., that the Mithraic system of ritual and doctrine took the form which it afterward retained. Here it came into contact with the mysteries, of which there were many varieties, among which the most notable were those of Cybele.

          According to the Roman historian Plutarch (c. 46-120 AD/CE), Mithraism began to be absorbed by the Romans during Pompey’s military campaign against Cilician pirates around 70 BCE. The religion eventually migrated from Asia Minor through the soldiers, many of whom had been citizens of the region, into Rome and the far reaches of the Empire. Syrian merchants brought Mithraism to the major cities, such as Alexandria, Rome and Carthage, while captives carried it to the countryside. By the third century AD/CE Mithraism and its mysteries permeated the Roman Empire and extended from India to Scotland, with abundant monuments in numerous countries amounting to over 420 Mithraic sites so far discovered.

          “By the third century AD/CE Mithraism and its mysteries permeated the Roman Empire and extended from India to Scotland.”

          From a number of discoveries, including pottery, inscriptions and temples, we know that Roman Mithraism gained a significant boost and much of its shape between 80 and 120 AD/CE, when the first artifacts of this particular cultus begin to be found at Rome. It reached a peak during the second and third centuries, before largely expiring at the end of the fourth/beginning of fifth centuries. Among its members during this period were emperors, politicians and businessmen. Indeed, before its usurpation by Christianity Mithraism enjoyed the patronage of some of the most important individuals in the Roman Empire. In the fifth century, the emperor Julian, having rejected his birth-religion of Christianity, adopted Mithraism and “introduced the practise of the worship at Constantinople.” (Schaff-Herzog, VII, 423)

          Modern scholarship has gone back and forth as to how much of the original Indo-Persian Mitra-Mithra cultus affected Roman Mithraism, which demonstrates a distinct development but which nonetheless follows a pattern of this earlier solar mythos and ritual. The theory of “continuity” from the Iranian to Roman Mithraism developed famously by scholar Dr. Franz Cumont in the 20th century has been largely rejected by many scholars. Yet, Plutarch himself (Life of Pompey, 24) related that followers of Mithras “continue to the present time” the “secret rites” of the Cilician pirates, “having been first instituted by them.” So too does the ancient writer Porphyry (234-c. 305 AD/CE) state that the Roman Mithraists themselves believed their religion had been founded by the Persian savior Zoroaster.

          In discussing what may have been recounted by ancient writers asserted to have written many volumes about Mithraism, such as Eubulus of Palestine and “a certain Pallas,” Gordon (Journal Mithraic Studies, v. 2, 150) remarks: “Certainly Zoroaster would have figured largely; and so would the Persians and the magi.” It seems that the ancients themselves did not divorce the eastern roots of Mithraism, as exemplified also by the remarks of Dio Cassius, who related that in 66 AD/CE the king of Armenia, Tiridates, visited Rome. Cassius states that the dignitary worshipped Mithra; yet, he does not indicate any distinction between the Armenian’s religion and Roman Mithraism.

          It is apparent from their testimony that ancient sources perceived Mithraism as having a Persian origin; hence, it would seem that any true picture of the development of Roman Mithraism must include the latter’s relationship to the earlier Persian cultus, as well as its Asia Minor and Armenian offshoots. Current scholarship is summarized thus by Dr. Beck (2004; 28):

          Since the 1970s, scholars of western Mithraism have generally agreed that Cumont’s master narrative of east-west transfer is unsustainable; but…recent trends in the scholarship on Iranian religion, by modifying the picture of that religion prior to the birth of the western mysteries, now render a revised Cumontian scenario of east-west transfer and continuities once again viable.

          In his massive anthology, Armenian and Iranian Studies, Dr. James R. Russell, professor of Armenian Studies at Harvard University, essentially proves that Roman Mithraism had its origins in not only Persian or Iranian Mithraism and Zoroastrianism but also in Armenian religion, dating back centuries before the common era.

          The Many Faces of Mithra
          Mainstream scholarship speaks of at least three Mithras: Mitra, the Vedic god; Mithra, the Persian deity; and Mithras, the Greco-Roman mysteries icon. However, the Persian Mithra apparently developed differently in various places, such as in Armenia, where there appeared to be emphasis on characteristics not overtly present in Roman Mithraism but found as motifs within Christianity, including the Virgin Mother Goddess. This Armenian Mithraism is evidently a continuity of the Mithraism of Asia Minor and the Near East. This development of gods taking on different forms, shapes, colors, ethnicities and other attributes according to location, era and so on is not only quite common but also the norm. Thus, we have hundreds of gods and goddesses who are in many ways interchangeable but who have adopted various differences based on geographical and environmental factors.

          Mithra and Christ
          Over the centuries—in fact, from the earliest Christian times—Mithraism has been compared to Christianity, revealing numerous similarities between the two faiths’ doctrines and traditions, including as concerns stories of their respective godmen. In developing this analysis, it should be kept in mind that elements from Roman, Armenian and Persian Mithraism are utilized, not as a whole ideology but as separate items that may have affected the creation of Christianity, whether directly through the mechanism of Mithraism or through another Pagan source within the Roman Empire and beyond. The evidence points to these motifs and elements being adopted into Christianity not as a whole from one source but singularly from many sources, including Mithraism.

          “The evidence points to these motifs and elements being adopted into Christianity…”

          Thus, the following list represents not a solidified mythos or narrative of one particular Mithra or form of the god as developed in one particular culture and era but, rather, a combination of them all for ease of reference as to any possible influences upon Christianity under the name of Mitra/Mithra/Mithras.

          Mithra has the following in common with the Jesus character:

          Mithra was born on December 25th of the virgin Anahita.
          The babe was wrapped in swaddling clothes, placed in a manger and attended by shepherds.
          He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.
          He had 12 companions or “disciples.”
          He performed miracles.
          As the “great bull of the Sun,” Mithra sacrificed himself for world peace.
          He ascended to heaven.
          Mithra was viewed as the Good Shepherd, the “Way, the Truth and the Light,” the Redeemer, the Savior, the Messiah.
          Mithra is omniscient, as he “hears all, sees all, knows all: none can deceive him.”
          He was identified with both the Lion and the Lamb.
          His sacred day was Sunday, “the Lord’s Day,” hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.
          His religion had a eucharist or “Lord’s Supper.”
          Mithra “sets his marks on the foreheads of his soldiers.”
          Mithraism emphasized baptism.
          December 25th Birthday
          The similarities between Mithraism and Christianity have included their chapels, the term “father” for priest, celibacy and, it is notoriously claimed, the December 25th birthdate. Over the centuries, apologists contending that Mithraism copied Christianity nevertheless have asserted that the December 25th birthdate was taken from Mithraism. As Sir Arthur Weigall says:

          December 25th was really the date, not of the birth of Jesus, but of the sun-god Mithra. Horus, son of Isis, however, was in very early times identified with Ra, the Egyptian sun-god, and hence with Mithra…

          Mithra’s birthday on December 25th has been so widely claimed that the Catholic Encyclopedia (“Mithraism”) remarks: “The 25 December was observed as his birthday, the natalis invicti, the rebirth of the winter-sun, unconquered by the rigours of the season.”

          Yet this contention of Mithra’s birthday on December 25th or the winter solstice is disputed because there is no hard archaeological or literary evidence of the Roman Mithras specifically being named as having been born at that time. Says Dr. Alvar:

          There is no evidence of any kind, not even a hint, from within the cult that this, or any other winter day, was important in the Mithraic calendar. (Alvar, 410)

          In analyzing the evidence, we must keep in mind all the destruction that has taken place over the past 2,000 years—including that of many Mithraic remains and texts—as well as the fact that several of these germane parallels constituted mysteries that may or may not have been recorded in the first place or the meanings of which have been obscured.

          The claim about the Roman Mithras’s birth on “Christmas” is evidently based on the Calendar of Filocalus or Philocalian Calendar (c. 354 AD/CE), which mentions that December 25th represents the “Birthday of the Unconquered,” understood to refer to the sun and taken to indicate Mithras as Sol Invictus. Whether it represents Mithras’s birthday specifically or “merely” that of Emperor Aurelian’s Sol Invictus, with whom Mithras has been identified, the Calendar also lists the day—the winter solstice birth of the sun—as that of natus Christus in Betleem Iudeae: “Birth of Christ in Bethlehem Judea.”

          Moreover, it would seem that there is more to this story, as Aurelian was the first to institute officially the winter solstice as the birthday of Sol Invictus (Dies Natalis Solis Invicti) in 274 AD/CE. (Halsberghe, 158) It is contended that Aurelian’s move was in response to Mithras’s popularity. (Restaud, 4) One would thus wonder why the emperor would be so motivated if Mithras had nothing whatsoever to do with the sun god’s traditional birthday—a disconnect that would be unusual for any solar deity.

          Regardless of whether or not the artifacts of the Roman Mithras’s votaries reflect the attribution of the sun god’s birthday to him specifically, many in the empire did identify the mysteries icon and Sol Invictus as one, evidenced by the inscriptions of “Sol Invictus Mithras” and the many images of Mithras and the sun together, representing two sides of the same coin or each other’s alter ego. Hence, the placement of Mithras’s birth on this feast day of the sun is understandable and, despite the lack of concrete evidence at this date, quite plausibly was recognized in this manner in antiquity in the Roman Empire.

          Persian Winter Festivals
          In addition, it is clear that the ancient peoples from whom Mithraism sprang, long before it was Romanized, were very much involved in winter festivals so common among many other cultures globally. In this regard, discussing the Iranian month of Asiyadaya, which corresponds to November/December, Mithraic scholar Dr. Mary Boyce remarks:

          …it is at this time of year that the Zoroastrian festival of Sada takes place, which is not only probably pre-Zoroastrian in origin, but may even go back to proto-Indo-European times. For Sada is a great open-air festival, of a kind celebrated widely among the Indo-European peoples, with the intention of strengthening the heavenly fire, the sun, in its winter decline and feebleness. Sun and fire being of profound significance in the Old Iranian religion, this is a festival which one would expect the Medes and Persians to have brought with them into their new lands… Sada is not, however, a feast in honour of the god of Fire, Atar, but is rather for the general strengthening of the creation of fire against the onslaught of winter. (Boyce (1982), 24-25)

          This ancient Persian winter festival therefore celebrates the strengthening of the “fire” or sun in the face its winter decline, just as virtually every winter-solstice festivity is intended to do. Yet, as Dr. Boyce says, this “Zoroastrian” winter celebration is likely pre-Zoroastrian and even proto-Indo-European, which means it dates back far into the hoary mists of time, possibly tens of thousands of years ago. And one would indeed expect the Medes and Persians to bring this festival with them into their new lands, including the Near East, where they would eventually encounter Romans, who could hardly have missed this common solar motif celebrated worldwide in numerous ways.

          “The Mithraists believed that this night is the night of the birth of Mithra, Persian god of light and truth.”

          The same may be said as concerns another Persian or Zoroastrian winter celebration called “Yalda,” which is the festival of the Longest Night of the Year, taking place on December 20th or the day before the solstice:

          Yalda has a history as long as the Mithraism religion. The Mithraists believed that this night is the night of the birth of Mithra, Persian god of light and truth. At the morning of the longest night of the year the Mithra is born from a virgin mother….

          In Zoroastrian tradition, the winter solstice with the longest night of the year was an auspicious day, and included customs intended to protect people from misfortune…. The Eve of the Yalda has great significance in the Iranian calendar. It is the eve of the birth of Mithra, the Sun God, who symbolized light, goodness and strength on earth. Shab-e Yalda is a time of joy.

          Yalda is a Syriac word meaning birth. Mithra-worshippers used the term “yalda” specifically with reference to the birth of Mithra. As the longest night of the year, the Eve of Yalda (Shab-e Yalda) is also a turning point, after which the days grow longer. In ancient times it symbolized the triumph of the Sun God over the powers of darkness. (“Yalda,” Wikipedia)

          It is likely that this festival does indeed derive from remote antiquity, and it is evident that the ancient Persians were well aware of the winter solstice and its meaning as found in numerous other cultures: To wit, the annual “rebirth,” “renewal” or “resurrection” of the sun.

          “‘Christmas’ is the birth not of the ‘son of God’ but of the sun.”

          In the end the effect is the same: “Christmas” is the birth not of the “son of God” but of the sun. Indeed, there is much evidence—including many ancient monumental alignments—to demonstrate that this highly noticeable and cherished event of the winter solstice was celebrated beginning hundreds to thousands of years before the common era in numerous parts of the world. The observation was thus provably taken over by Christianity, not as biblical doctrine but as a later tradition in order to compete with the Pagan cults, a move we contend occurred with numerous other “Christian” motifs, including many that are in the New Testament.

          Mithra the ‘Rock-Born’
          Mithra’s genesis out of a rock, analogous to the birth in caves of a number of gods—including Jesus in the apocryphal, non-canonical texts— was followed by his adoration by shepherds, another motif that found its way into the later Christianity. Regarding the birth in caves likewise common to pre-Christian gods, and present in the early legends of Jesus, Weigall relates (50):

          …the cave shown at Bethlehem as the birthplace of Jesus was actually a rock shrine in which the god Tammuz or Adonis was worshipped, as the early Christian father Jerome tells us; and its adoption as the scene of the birth of our Lord was one of those frequent instances of the taking over by Christians of a pagan sacred site. The propriety of this appropriation was increased by the fact that the worship of a god in a cave was commonplace in paganism: Apollo, Cybele, Demeter, Herakles, Hermes, Mithra and Poseidon were all adored in caves; Hermes, the Greek Logos, being actually born of Maia in a cave, and Mithra being “rock-born.”

          As the “rock-born,” Mithras was called “Theos ek Petras,” or the “God from the Rock.” As Weigall also relates:

          Indeed, it may be that the reason of the Vatican hill at Rome being regarded as sacred to Peter, the Christian “Rock,” was that it was already sacred to Mithra, for Mithraic remains have been found there.

          Mithras was “the rock,” or Peter, and was also “double-faced,” like Janus the keyholder, likewise a prototype for the “apostle” Peter. Hence, when Jesus is made to say (in the apparent interpolation at Matthew 16:12) that the keys of the kingdom of heaven are given to “Peter” and that the Church is to be built upon “Peter,” as a representative of Rome, he is usurping the authority of Mithraism, which was precisely headquartered on what became Vatican Hill.

          “Mithraic remains on Vatican Hill are found underneath the later Christian edifices, which proves the Mithra cult was there first.”

          By the time the Christian hierarchy prevailed in Rome, Mithra had already been a popular cult, with pope, bishops, etc., and its doctrines were well established and widespread, reflecting a certain antiquity. Mithraic remains on Vatican Hill are found underneath the later Christian edifices, a fact that proves the Mithra cult was there first. In fact, while Mithraic ruins are abundant throughout the Roman Empire, beginning in the late first century AD/CE, “The earliest church remains, found in Dura-Europos, date only from around 230 CE.”

          The Virgin Mother Anahita
          Unlike various other rock- or cave-born gods, Mithra is not depicted in the Roman cultus as having been given birth by a mortal woman or a goddess; hence, it is claimed that he was not “born of a virgin.” However, a number of writers over the centuries have asserted otherwise, including several modern Persian and Armenian scholars who are apparently reflecting an ancient tradition from Near Eastern Mithraism.

          “The worship of Mithra and Anahita, the virgin mother of Mithra, was well-known in the Achaemenian period.”

          For example, Dr. Badi Badiozamani says that a “person” named “Mehr” or Mithra was “born of a virgin named Nahid Anahita (‘immaculate’)” and that “the worship of Mithra and Anahita, the virgin mother of Mithra, was well-known in the Achaemenian period [558-330 BCE]…” (Badiozamani, 96) Philosophy professor Dr. Mohammed Ali Amir-Moezzi states: “Dans le mithraïsme, ainsi que le mazdéisme populaire, (A)Nāhīd, mère de Mithra/Mehr, est vierge”—”In Mithraism, as in popular Mazdaism, Anahid, the mother of Mithra, is a virgin.” (Amir-Moezzi, 78-79) Comparing the rock birth with that of the virgin mother, Dr. Amir-Moezzi also says:

          …il y a donc analogie entre le rocher, symbole d’incorruptibilité, qui donne naissance au dieu iranien et la mère de celui-ci, Anāhīd, éternellement vierge et jeune.

          (…so there is analogy between the rock, a symbol of incorruptibility, giving birth to the Iranian god and the mother of that (same) one, Anahid, eternally virgin and young.)

          In Mithraic Iconography and Ideology (78), Dr. Leroy A. Campbell calls Anahita the “great goddess of virgin purity,” and Religious History professor Dr. Claas J. Bleeker says, “In the Avestan religion she is the typical virgin.” (Bleeker (1963), 100)

          One modern writer (“Mithraism and Christianity”) portrays the Mithra myth thus:

          According to Persian mythology, Mithras was born of a virgin given the title “Mother of God.”

          The Parthian princes of Armenia were all priests of Mithras, and an entire district of this land was dedicated to the Virgin Mother Anahita. Many Mithraeums, or Mithraic temples, were built in Armenia, which remained one of the last strongholds of Mithraism. The largest near-eastern Mithraeum was built in western Persia at Kangavar, dedicated to “Anahita, the Immaculate Virgin Mother of the Lord Mithras.”

          Anahita, also known as “Anaitis”—whose very name means “Pure” and “Untainted” and who was equated in antiquity with the virgin goddess Artemis—is certainly an Indo-Iranian goddess of some antiquity, dating back at least to the first half of the first millennium prior to the common era and enjoying “widespread popularity” around Asia Minor. Indeed, Anahita has been called “the best known divinity of the Persians” in Asia Minor. (de Jong, 268)

          Moreover, concerning Mithra Schaff-Herzog says, “The Achaemenidae worshiped him as making the great triad with Ahura and Anahita.” Ostensibly, this “triad” was the same as God the Father, the Virgin and Jesus, which would tend to confirm the assertion that Anahita was Mithra’s virgin mother. That Anahita was closely associated with Mithra at least five centuries before the common era is evident from the equation made by Herodotus (1.131) in naming “Mitra” as the Persian counterpart of the Near and Middle Eastern goddesses Alilat and Mylitta. (de Jong, 269-270)

          Moreover, Mithra’s prototype, the Indian Mitra, was likewise born of a female, Aditi, the “mother of the gods,” the inviolable or virgin dawn. Hence, we would expect an earlier form of Mithra also to possess this virgin-mother motif, which seems to have been lost or deliberately severed in the all-male Roman Mithraism.

          Well known to scholars, the pre-Christian divine birth and virgin mother motifs are documented in the archaeological and literary records, as verified by Dr. Marguerite Rigoglioso in The Cult of the Divine Birth in Ancient Greece and Virgin Mother Goddesses of Antiquity.

          For more information, see:

          Mithra and the Twelve
          The theme of the teaching god and “the Twelve” is found within Mithraism, as Mithra is depicted as surrounded by the 12 zodiac signs on a number of monuments and in the writings of Porphyry (4.16), for one. These 12 signs are sometimes portrayed as humans and, as they have been in the case of numerous sun gods, could be called Mithra’s 12 “companions” or “disciples.”

          Regarding the Twelve, John M. Robertson says:

          On Mithraic monuments we find representations of twelve episodes, probably corresponding to the twelve labors in the stories of Heracles, Samson and other Sun-heroes, and probably also connected with initiation.

          The comparison of this common motif with Jesus and the 12 has been made on many occasions, including in an extensive study entitled, “Mithras and Christ: some iconographical similarities,” by Professor A. Deman in Mithraic Studies.

          Early Church Fathers on Mithraism
          Mithraism was so popular in the Roman Empire and so similar in important aspects to Christianity that several Church fathers were compelled to address it, disparagingly of course. These fathers included Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Julius Firmicus Maternus and Augustine, all of whom attributed these striking correspondences to the prescient devil. In other words, anticipating Christ, the devil set about to fool the Pagans by imitating the coming messiah. In reality, the testimony of these Church fathers confirms that these various motifs, characteristics, traditions and myths predated Christianity.

          “Christianity took a leaf out of the devil’s book when it fixed the birth of the Saviour on the twenty-fifth of December.”

          Concerning this “devil did it” argument, in The Worship of Nature Sir James G. Frazer remarks:

          If the Mithraic mysteries were indeed a Satanic copy of a divine original, we are driven to conclude that Christianity took a leaf out of the devil’s book when it fixed the birth of the Saviour on the twenty-fifth of December; for there can be no doubt that the day in question was celebrated as the birthday of the Sun by the heathen before the Church, by an afterthought, arbitrarily transferred the Nativity of its Founder from the sixth of January to the twenty-fifth of December.

          Regarding the various similarities between Mithra and Christ, as well as the defenses of the Church fathers, the author of The Existence of Christ Disproved remarks:

          Augustine, Firmicus, Justin, Tertullian, and others, having perceived the exact resemblance between the religion of Christ and the religion of Mithra, did, with an impertinence only to be equalled by its outrageous absurdity, insist that the devil, jealous and malignant, induced the Persians to establish a religion the exact image of Christianity that was to be—for these worthy saints and sinners of the church could not deny that the worship of Mithra preceded that of Christ—so that, to get out of the ditch, they summoned the devil to their aid, and with the most astonishing assurance, thus accounted for the striking similarity between the Persian and the Christian religion, the worship of Mithra and the worship of Christ; a mode of getting rid of a difficulty that is at once so stupid and absurd, that it would be almost equally stupid and absurd seriously to refute it.

          “It is good practice to steer clear of all information provided by Christian writers: they are not ‘sources,’ they are violent apologists.”

          In response to a question about Tertullian’s discussion of the purported Mithraic forehead mark, Dr. Richard Gordon says:

          In general, in studying Mithras, and the other Greco-oriental mystery cults, it is good practice to steer clear of all information provided by Christian writers: they are not “sources,” they are violent apologists, and one does best not to believe a word they say, however tempting it is to supplement our ignorance with such stuff. (Gordon, “FAQ”)

          He also cautions about speculation concerning Mithraism and states that “there is practically no limit to the fantasies of scholars,” an interesting admission about the hallowed halls of academia.

          Priority: Mithraism or Christianity?
          It is obvious from the remarks of the Church fathers and from the literary and archaeological record that Mithraism in some form preceded Christianity by centuries. The fact is that there is no Christian archaeological evidence earlier than the earliest Roman Mithraic archaeological evidence and that the preponderance of evidence points to Christianity being formulated during the second century, not based on a “historical” personage of the early first century. As one important example, the canonical gospels as we have them do not show up clearly in the literary record until the end of the second century.

          Mithra’s pre-Christian roots are attested in the Vedic and Avestan texts, as well as by historians such as Herodotus (1.131) and Xenophon (Cyrop. viii. 5, 53 and c. iv. 24), among others. Nor is it likely that the Roman Mithras is not essentially the same as the Indian sun god Mitra and the Persian, Armenian and Phrygian Mithra in his major attributes, as well as some of his most pertinent rites.

          Moreover, it is erroneously asserted that because Mithraism was a “mystery cult” it did not leave any written record. In reality, much evidence of Mithra worship has been destroyed, including not only monuments, iconography and other artifacts, but also numerous books by ancient authors. The existence of written evidence is indicated by the Egyptian cloth “manuscript” from the first century BCE called, “Mummy Funerary Inscription of the Priest of Mithras, Ornouphios, Son fo Artemis” or MS 247.

          As previously noted, two of the ancient writers on Mithraism are Pallas, and Eubulus, the latter of whom, according to Jerome (Against Jovinianus, 2.14; Schaff 397), “wrote the history of Mithras in many volumes.” Discussing Eubulus and Pallas, Porphyry too related that there were “several elaborate treatises setting forth the religion of Mithra.” The writings of the early Church fathers themselves provide much evidence as to what Mithraism was all about, as do the archaeological artifacts stretching from India to Scotland.

          These many written volumes doubtlessly contained much interesting information that was damaging to Christianity, such as the important correspondences between the “lives” of Mithra and Jesus, as well as identical symbols such as the cross, and rites such as baptism and the eucharist. In fact, Mithraism was so similar to Christianity that it gave fits to the early Church fathers, as it does to this day to apologists, who attempt both to deny the similarities and yet to claim that these (non-existent) correspondences were plagiarized by Mithraism from Christianity.

          “Regardless of attempts to make Mithraism the plagiarist of Christianity, the fact will remain that Mithraism was first.”

          Nevertheless, the god Mithra was revered for centuries prior to the Christian era, and the germane elements of Mithraism are known to have preceded Christianity by hundreds to thousands of years. Thus, regardless of attempts to make Mithraism the plagiarist of Christianity, the fact will remain that Mithraism was first, well established in the West decades before Christianity had any significant influence.

          For more information and citations, see The Christ Conspiracy, Suns of God, “Origins of Christianity,” “The ZEITGEIST Sourcebook” and The Christ Myth Anthology.

          Bibliography
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          “Mithraic Mysteries,” en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraic_mysteries
          “Mithraism,” http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=8042
          “Mithraism and Christianity,” meta-religion.com/World_Religions/Ancient_religions/Mesopotamia/Mithraism/ mithraism_and_christianity_i.htm
          “Mithras in Comparison With Other Belief Systems,” en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithras_in_Comparison_With_Other_Belief_Systems
          “Mitra,” en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitra
          “Yalda,” en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yalda
          Alvar, Jaime, and R.L. Gordon. Romanising Oriental Gods: Myth, Salvation and Ethics in the Cults of Cybele, Isis and Mithras. Leiden/Boston: Brill, 2008.
          Amir-Moezzi, Mohammed Ali. La religion discrète: croyances et pratiques spirituelles dans l’islam shi’ite. Paris: Libr. Philosophique Vrin, 2006.
          Anonymous. The Existence of Christ Disproved. Private Printing by “A German Jew,” 1840.
          Badiozamani, Badi. Iran and America: Rekindling a Lost Love. California: East-West Understanding Press, 2005.
          Beck, Roger. Beck on Mithraism. England/Vermont: Ashgate Pub., 2004.
          Berry, Gerald. Religions of the World. New York: Barnes & Noble, 1955.
          Bleeker, Claas J. The Sacred Bridge: Researches into the Nature and Structure of Religion. Leiden: E.J. Brill, 1963.
          Boyce, Mary. “Mithraism: Mithra Khsathrapati and his brother Ahura.” http://www.iranchamber.com/religions/articles/mithra_khsathrapati_ahura.php
          —A History of Zoroastrianism, II. Leiden/Köln: E.J. Brill, 1982.
          Campbell, LeRoy A. Mithraic Iconography and Ideology. Leiden: E.J. Brill, 1968.
          de Jong, Albert. Traditions of the Magi: Zoroastrianism in Greek and Latin Literature. Leiden/New York: Brill, 1997.
          Forbes, Bruce David. Christmas: A Candid History. Berkeley/London: University of California Press, 2007.
          Frazer, James G. The Worship of Nature, I. London: Macmillan, 1926.
          Gordon, Richard L. “FAQ.” Electronic Journal of Mithraic Studies, http://www.hums.canterbury.ac.nz/clas/ejms/faq.htm
          —”The date and significance of CIMRM 593 (British Museum, Townley Collection).” Journal of Mithraic Studies, II: 148-174). hums.canterbury.ac.nz/clas/ejms/out_of_print/JMSv2n2/ JMSv2n2Gordon.pdf
          Halsberghe, Gaston H. The Cult of Sol Invictus. Leiden: E.J. Brill, 1972.
          Hinnells, John R., ed. Mithraic Studies: Proceedings of the First International Congress of Mithraic Studies. Manchester: Manchester University Press, 1975.
          Kosso, Cynthia, and Anne Scott. The Nature and Function of Water, Baths, Bathing and Hygiene from Antiquity through the Renaissance. Leiden/Boston: Brill, 2009.
          Lundy, John P. Monumental Christianity. New York: J.W. Bouton, 1876.
          Molnar, Michael R. The Star of Bethlehem: The Legacy of the Magi. New Jersey: Rutgers University Press, 1999.
          The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia, VII. eds. Samuel M. Jackson and George William Gilmore. New York/London: Funk and Wagnalls Company, 1910.
          Plutarch. “Life of Pompey.” The Parallel Lives by Plutarch, V. Loeb, 1917; penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Plutarch/Lives/ Pompey*.html#24
          Porphyry. Selects Works of Porphyry. London: T. Rodd, 1823.
          Prajnanananda, Swami. Christ the Saviour and Christ Myth. Calcutta: Ramakrishna Vedanta Math, 1984.
          Restaud, Penne L. Christmas in America: A History. New York: Oxford Univ. Press, 1995.
          Robert, Alexander, and James Donaldson, eds. Ante-Nicene Christian Library, XVIII: The Clementine Homilies. Edinburgh: T&T Clark, 1870.
          Robertson, John M. Pagan Christs. Dorset, 1966.
          Russell, James R. Armenian and Iranian Studies. Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 2004.
          Schaff, Philip, and Henry Wace. A Select Library of Nicene and Post-Nicene Father of the Christian Church, VI. New York: The Christian Literature Company, 1893.
          Schironi, Francesca, and Arthus S. Hunt. From Alexandria to Babylon: Near Eastern Languages and Hellenistic Erudition in the Oxyrhynchus Glossary. Berlin/New York: Walter de Gruyter, 2009.
          Srinivasan, Doris. On the Cusp of an Era: Art in the Pre-Kusana World. Leiden/Boston: Brill, 2007.
          Weigall, Arthur. The Paganism in Our Christianity. London: Thames & Hudson, 1923.
          From me:I don’t think the article posted i’ll see when i go to your site after sending,if not i will try and send it by itself.I see King David has contacted you about our debate,birds of a feather flock together.
          jay

      • My dear Jay, Are we in that road again 🙂 Let me point three things Jay.

        1. The problem with the position you presented, none produced copy of copy of original manuscripts. You, Jay, with your own word agreed that we do not have any manuscripts before 30 A.D. Moreover I presented to you alot of manuscripts from different museum and universities that told a different story.

        2. There is a passage by passage refutation of your position offered by atheists and skeptics in at Conspirancies: http://conspiracies.skepticproject.com/

        3. Even if the Copy-cat apologist, like you, is able to produce evidence that there are manuscripts before 150 A.D as you said, it is logically fallacious.(Remember the titanic story)

        Your faith in Copy-cat theory amazing powerful. I do pray that God will touch your heart, mind and soul for his glory.

        In Christ,
        Prayson

        • Oh Boy,Prayson you are a lost cause,i know you didn’t have time to read the whole article i sent,and i noticed that the links to “Extra Canonical sources”didn’t show up in what i sent.You care nothing for evidence from ancient before christianity monuments, or even writings from early church fathers and other second century writings.Plus statements from your own OT. Bible in Jer.10:2-5 that what later was called Christmas and a pagan worship was adopted into christianity or that what later was called Easter in Ezek.8:14-17 shows and condemns the festival.
          Yoiur claims of parallels meaning nothing is laughable and shows nothing but biblical mind control(and only part of that leave out Jer.10:2-5 and EZEK.8:14-17),BIBLICAL BRAINWASHING AND PURE BLIND FAITH.It matters not to you that the town of Nazareth did not exist in the first century,nor did the town of Bethlehem of Judea did not exist then either,but the Bethlehem of Galilee did exist but Matthew said Bethlehem of Juda.It matters not to you that the 2 geneaologies of Jesus in Matthew and Luke could never,ever connect Jesus to a David or Solomon bloodline as the O.T.claims it’s Messiah would have,it matters not to you that Isaiah 7:14 was never a prophecy about Jesus some 700 years later,that even the Hebrew word “Almah”translated as virgin is easily proved a wrong translation.So here is your ad homein insult,just continue on decieving people with unsubstainiated lies and very un-provable silly mind control theories.
          Jay

      • Dear Jay,

        Thank you for comment.

        I am sad that you believe that I am brainwashed by my faith 🙂 But Bible brainwashed-ad hominem does not work, neither :/ since the atheists and skeptics(http://conspiracies.skepticproject.com/
        ), also refute the position you are holding.

        Jay, we have already walked that road last year. I am blind because you failed to present evidences viz. the source of information(copies of copies of original manuscripts) of your wonderful stories.

        Last year October you stated that I “ask for an impossible document at least right now but it may be found later on”.

        I have learn to accept your faith in “may be found later on” documents to show that Christian copied Mithraism, (which even true, still logically false), I hope God will lead you to himself when time is right.

        So much thank you for your comments once again.

        In Christ,
        Prayson

        • Prayson i have sent you a ship load of evidence that you are incorrect that christianity did not copy from paganism,so what else but biblical mind control and brainwashing could be your problem?You do not study what i send because it is so ingrained in your mind that you are correct that you do not bother to even think seriously.If you studied ancient mythism as much as you have supposedly studied the Bible it would be as plain as the nose on your face.The last copy and paste i sent you is from a lady who has Bachelor degree from Franklin & Marshall college on Liberal Arts in Classical ancient Greek civilization,she also studied in Athens, Greece at the School of Classical studies,she spent about one year in the Middle East on an archaeologist excavation doing her digging under the eyes of a well known archaeologist,she is a linguist and speaks fluently French,Spanish,Itallian,Latin,German and modern Greek,Hebrew and speaks a smattering of several other languages.She has also spent close to 20 years researching and studying ancient mythology.This is the person you think that you are smarter than,where are and what are your credentials?Can you speak and read ancient Hebrew and Greek?
          That’s what your Bible is translated from,ancient out-dated Hebrew and Greek except a little that is from Aramic.You say ad homien doesn’t bother you,of course not your mind is so ingrained that you are correct no amount of proof and evidence could change your mind.I don’t just believe you are mind controlled i know you are.Because i have been down your mind controlled road,so i know what it can do to a person.You say you hope and in another email say you’ll pray for me to see the truth,were i you i’d pray for yourself to learn the truth,but your non-audible, invisible Sky God, Sun God will never teach you anything,the only way you will learn is through a deep long investigation and research and you have not even began that journey and most likely never will because you are afraid of what you’d find.Waiting 2000 years and your Jesus not returning should make anyone see that Jesus is a myth,but biblical mind control stops constructive reliable thinking.Goodbye,
          JAY

      • Dear Jay,

        The lady’s name is D.M. Murdock and she have failed to produce the original or the copies of original source of her thesis, so far.(http://risenjesus.com/licona-replies-to-acharya-part-2).

        In the other hand, I can name more than 50 Phd contemporary scholars for Historical Jesus. All these scholars(Christians and non-Christians) agree that:

        1. Jesus’ death by crucifixion, 2. Jesus’ followers sincerely believed Jesus rose from the dead, 3. Early Eye-Witness Testimony to belief in Jesus’ Resurrection, 4. The conversion of Jesus’ skeptical brother, James and 5. Saul, a major enemy of Christianity, became Paul, an advocator for Christianity:

        1. Bultmann, Theology of the New Testament, 1:44-46, 52, 60, 80-83.
        2. Tillich, Systematic Theology, 2:153-58.
        3. John Hick, Death and Eternal Life (Louisville, Ky: Westminster John Knox Press, 1994), 171-77.
        4. Bornkamm, Jesus of Nazareth, 179-86.
        5. Koester, Introduction to the New Testament, 2:84-86, 100.
        6. Barth, Church Dogmatics, vol. 4, part 1, 334-36, 351-53.
        7. Emil Brunner, Dogmatics, 3 vols., trans. Olive Wyon (Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1950-79), 2:363-78.
        8. Moltmann, Theology of Hope, 165-66, 172, 197-202.
        9. C.H. Dodd, “Appearances of the Risen Christ,” 124-25, 131-33.
        10. Perrin, Resurrection according to Matthew, Mark, and Luke, 78-84.
        11. Robinson, Can We Trust? 113-29.
        12. Fuller, Formation of the Resurrection Narratives, 27-49.
        13. Grant, Jesus, 174-79.
        14. Pannenberg, Jesus: God and Man, 88-106.
        15. Wilckens, Resurrection, 6-16, 112-14.
        16. Jeremias, “Easter,” 300-311.
        17. Werner Georg Kummel, The Theology of the New Testament: According to its Major Witnesses: Jesus—Paul—John (Nashville: Abingdon Press, 1973), 102-5.
        18. Brown, Virginal Conception, 80-82, 128.
        19. Goppelt, “Easter Kerygma,” 35-37, 43-53.
        20. Elaine Pagels, The Gnostic Gospels (New York: Random House, 1979), 3-12.
        21. Marcus Barth and Verne H. Fletcher, Acquittal by Resurrection (New York: Holt, Rinehart and Winston, 1964), part 1 (Barth), 11-15, 37-39.
        22. Paul Van Buren, The Secular Meaning of the Gospel: Based on an Analysis of its Language (New York: Macmillan, 1963), 126-34.
        23. Wand, Christianity, 51, 59, 84, 93, 108.
        24. Hunter, Jesus: Lord and Saviour, 98-107.
        25. Ramsey, The Resurrection of Christ, 35-45.
        26. W.T. Jones, A History of Western Philosophy, 5 vols, 2nd ed., (New York: Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, 1969), 2:34-35, 39.
        27. Ladd, I Believe in the Resurrection, 36-43, 93, 109-11.
        28. Daniel Fuller, Easter Faith and History (Grand Rapids, Mich.: Eerdmans, 1965), 208-29
        29. Thielicke, “The Resurrection Kerygma,” 59-62, 86-91.
        30. Osborne, The Resurrection Narratives, 231-33, 276-77, 281-88.
        31. Perkins, Resurrection, 84-95, 196-210.
        32. Kee, What Can We Know?, 1-2, 21-23, 60-61, 85-86, 90.
        33. Lapide, Resurrection of Jesus, 91-99, 125-31.
        34. Sheehan, The First Coming, 101-18.
        35. Barnett, Jesus and the Logic of History, 115-34, 159-61.
        36. Craig, Assessing, 36-38, 53-82, 163-96, 379-420.
        37. Sanders, The Historical Figure of Jesus, 10-13, 125-26, 133-36, 277-81.
        38. O’Collins, Jesus Risen, 99-147.
        39. Johnson, The Real Jesus, 110-22, 133-36.
        40. Spong, Resurrection: Myth or Reality? 47-56, 239-43, 255-60.
        41. Drane, Introducing the New Testament, 77-107.
        42. Funk, Honest to Jesus, 33-40, 260, 267-75.
        43. Murray Harris, Raised Immortal: Resurrection and Immortality in the New Testament (Grand Rapids, Mich.: Eerdmans, 1983), 5-11, 60.
        44. Ludemann, What Really Happened to Jesus, 9-17, 102-5, 125-34.
        45. Lorenzen, Resurrection and Discipleship, 131-36, 141-44, 184-87.
        46. Clark, Interpreting the Resurrection, 89-101.
        47. Maier, In the Fullness of Time, 164-88, 204-5.
        48. John Dominic Crossan, The Historical Jesus: The Life of a Mediterranean Jewish Peasant (San Francisco: Harper Collins, 1991), 372-75, 397-98.
        49. Crossan, Jesus, 135, 145, 154, 165, 190.
        50. Davis, Risen Indeed, 15, 177-85.
        51. Bart D. Ehrman, Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium (New York: Oxford University Press, 1999), 227-31.
        52. Meier, A Marginal Jew, 3:67-71, 146-47, 234-35, 251-52, 625.
        53. Wedderburn, Beyond Resurrection, 4-15, 47, 113-17, 188.
        54. Wright, The New Testament, 111, 353-54, 400-401.
        55. Wright, Jesus and the Victory of God, 109-12, 480, 487, 551-52, 659.”

        This list include Christians and non-Christians(atheists and skeptics). So if we are to place our faith in contemporary scholarship, I am sad to inform you that your position Jay, has being rejected and has no place in serious NT scholarship (even atheists and skeptics rejects it).

        Remember that Bible brainwashed-ad hominem argument, you are using on me, does not work because non-Christians also refuted the position you placed your faith in.

        Perhaps you could help D.M. Murdock to produce a primary source of this wonderful copy-cat stories, because the primary sources that I found refutes the wonderful copy-cat stories. 🙂 You can find and read some of primary sources on Mithra here.

        Jay, I do love and care about you, and it is that reason I am here answering your comments. I will always be here waiting for you to produce the primary sources(as evidence) and then show how it logically follow that Christian copied from Mithraism. I will be here because I found the greatest love that enable me to love your more and patiently sharing the reasons of my reasonable faith and hope, that I have in Christ Jesus, my Lord and my God.

        May God lead you to himself when time is right.

        In Christ,
        Prayson

        • Yes the lady’s name is Achary S or Dorothy Murdock,now let me tell you a little story about who i am sure is your friend J.P.Holding,Tektonics apology.J.P’s real name is Robert Turkel he was writing under the name J.P.Holding for fear that if his real name were known that one of the prisoners where he was a librayrian might kill him if his real name was known.Dorothy Murdock was writing under the name of Acharya S because her ex-husband threatened to kill her and her son(also his son)he was wanted for other crimes but the cops had not yet found him at that time.Your no good apologetic J.P.Holding was the first to publish her real name on the internet allowing the ex-husband to know how to find her.The very thing Robert Turkel was using the alias of J.P.Holding for he was dirty enough to release Acharya S as being Dorothy Murdock and almost got her killed.It takes a dirty S.O.B.to do such a thing.I wrote J.P.Holding over 5 years ago not about that but about his biblical claims all he ever sent back were insults(even on my first email)and smiley faces.A little later he called me an old man driving an Edsel down the freeway not knowing which exit to get off on.All of his internet answers to skeptics and atheists when he could not answer included insults,and childish behavior,him and his wife have no children so he also has never grown up,he is a lying,insulting,childish no good S.O.B.
          You can tell him that if you want to,because after about 4 emails without answering anything he blocked me off his email.I signed my later emails “The old man in the Edsel”

          Now about your long list of supposed PHD’S who you claim support a historical Jesus and a resurrection from the dead,i have writen 3-4 on your list and guess what just like you they could not prove the 4 gospel N.T.Jesus,they could only prove there were Jesus’es(people named Jesus)in the first century.Once you tell them to prove the miracle worker,crucified and resurrected from the dead Jesus and not just any Jesus from the first century your PHD’S fall by the wayside just like you do.Why?Because there is no ZERO proof or evidence that the 4 gospel Jesus ever lived as a flesh and blood person.You like to harp on Acharya S and myself about ancient documentation when you have no documentation either.You don’t even have original manuscripts(if there ever were any) of the 4 gospels or the rest of the N.T.your earliest manuscripts date to the mid 300 A.D.s or over 200 years after your false claim of them being writen in the first century.I did not get all of my info from Dorothy Murdock i dug it out piece by hidden piece.
          Until you can furnish me a first century document stating the miracle worker,crucified and resurrected from the dead Jesus ever walked this earth you need to shut up about documentation.Above i covered your #1.claim in your email.Your #2.Jesus followers sincerely believed Jesus rose from the dead,really when writing a religious book you can claim anything,just like Jesus history knows nothing about the 12 desciples,or Paul,you would think that if christianity was started by Jesus,12 desciples and Paul their names would be somewhere recorded by historians and philosophers,but what do we get a big BLANK.You only hear of Paul from N.T.Roman religious works.The N.T.could never be called historical documents even by a kangaroo court,they are religious works.Would anyone lie about religious works?Do you believe the Koran or Buddhists or Hindu religious books?
          Your #.3.Early eyewitnesses testify to belief in Jesus resurrection.Can yo name me one place in the 4 gospels that whoever the writers were say they themselves were eyewitnesses to the crucifixtion and resurrection?This is another myth created by christianity,the gospels only claim someone(un-named)told them about it,in other words heresay.The claimed 500 eyewitnesses in Acts after the resurrection none of them have a personal name,and who was the idiot who sat around in a crowd and counted over 500?
          Your #4.Skeptical James.Now why would James be skeptical if he saw all the miracles of Jesus raising people from the dead,feeding 5000 people with a small amount of food,turning water into wine and all of the other tall miracle tales claimed about Jesus?Kinda stupid isn’t it?And let me tell you something else the Judas tale of identifying Jesus is pure ignorance and only added so an O.T.supposed prophecy could claim to be fulfilled,your N.T.says Jesuys was known far and wide,that multitudes followed him,he fed 5000 at one time,your Jesus would not need to be identified everyone would have known him.And never,ever would the Jews have woke Pilate up in the middle of the night for a trial,or Pilate may have crucified all of them,beside that the Romans at that time are known to have the best legal system on earth,we still use some of their laws in our court system,they had long trials not a middle of the night trial and crucifixtion the next morning.All over your N.T.shows more holes than Swiss cheese,and this garbage you swallow hook line and sinker,because of biblical mind control not clear thinking.

          Your # 5.Saul later called Paul.Paul or whoever wrote his claimed works was writen before the gospels,but yet Paul knows nothing about a virgin birth,Jesus parables,the Sermon on the Mount,the Lord’s prayer or any of Jesus sayings,even though Paul would have been alive at least at the time of the crucifixtion yet he knows nothing of a historical Jesus,he only knows a vision he claims to have had on the road to Damascus.The passages about him going to Jerusalem and meeting the apostles you can tell is a later insertion into his writings.The N.T.is full of later interpolations and frauds.Yes there were Jesus’es in the first century just no miracle worker,crucified and resurrected from the dead Jesus,send documentation or shut up about copy-cat documentation.If you’d read 5 books Acharya S has out instead of reading snippets of it from the internet,you’d see she has plenty of evidence christianity copied the pagans.Your actual research is lousy.
          JAY

  58. Lets get a few things straight i have not copied and pasted from 19th.century scholars,i have not pasted from atheist sites,even though they do have more proof than you have i have avoided doing that,so here you go lying again.You have not sent me an original document from the first century proving a historical Jesus.The burden of proof is on you because you are the one who claims a historical Jesus.
    I looked up info on your Nazareth Cultural & Tourism Assoc.in several places(not atheist)they say what they say there is unsubstaitiated and is put on there to draw tourism,so that is 2 links you have sent that does nothing to substaniate your claims.The third one you sent from early church fathers is from second century claims long after anything contemporary with Jesus and long after the church had plenty of time to arrange things trying support the Jesus claim.Now back to Nazareth.
    Just like the shroud of Turin,James burial box and hundreds of other supposed christian findings that turned out to be frauds in 1993 catholic archaeologists claimed to have found a bath house dating to the first century Nazareth it to turned out to be a fraud.Just recently i think this year i think it was they found a dwelling house claiming it dated to the first century,they claimed that immedieately before doing tests to see if it actually was from the first century,so look for that to become yet another fraud.As of right now there is no evidence of a first century town called Nazareth,not literary,not archaeology,not history.Right now the only evidence is it was inhabited in the Iron age the Bronze age but by the time of Jesus it had not been inhabited for around 800 years.That is the real truth you have sent ZERO reliable proof.Roman Catholic’s have come up with thousands of things over the centurys that turned out to be frauds in their effort to prove a historical JESUS,IN the first few hundreds of years of christianity they claimed enough splinters of the cross to sink a battle ship,so there is no use to get very exicted over anything that hits the headlines concerning frauds like this,just wait a year or so and it will prove to be yet another fraud.So far you have sent nothing,ZERO,proof of a historical Jesus or Nazareth,the only ones you can decieve are christians who are already decieved and will believe anything biblical without question.Do better research you are zero for zero of any reliable proof or evidence.
    Jay

  59. Pingback: Refuting Krishna Myth Parallelism To Christianity « With All I Am

  60. Prayson,
    Talk about a stone head and lack of research you are more and more acting completely ignorant.Remember you accused me of being stone that knows nothing.You have to be ignorant to claim the Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs proves a Jesus or the town of Nazareth.What the IMFA does is formulates,implements,and presents Israel’s foreign policy,so of course it would say Ministry of Jesus of Jesus of Nazareth C.20-33 so they would remember when some foreign affair was dealt with in a foreign country that was christianity based.You are getting worse and worse in trying to defend your position.Actually i am sorry but this effort shows complete lack of any intelligent thinking.Look up Israel Antiquities Authority they agree there was no Nazareth in the first century.It’s a fact there was no Nazareth in the first century,stop lying and do research.That’s the most idiotic thing i ever saw sending an Israel Forign Ministry link trying to prove the exsistence of Jesus or Nazareth.Lies like this is what the whole of christianity is based on,you should be ashamed to lie like you do.The IMFA has nothing whatsoever to do with religion.You shame any honest scholar with everything you have sent.
    Jay

    • Dear Jay,

      You are not a stone Jay. Stone knows nothing, you know something, therefore you are not a stone.

      The problem is that you do not back up your claims. They are without warrant.

      While I gave you Nazareth office site for it’s History and Archeology- You denied
      I gave you Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs– You denied
      I gave you the First Church Fathers – You denied

      How did I end up with a burden of proof? 🙂 I believe it was you who ought to produce an Original document that support your view, namely Mithras Myth is Parallel to Christianity, to which you have not 😦 All you have is copy-paste 19th Century Germany scholars(whom give no source to their information) speculative theory which no Modern Contemporary Scholar being Atheist or Non-theist holds.

      I would like to see you defending your position, point to us to any original or copy of original, or copy of copy of original Mithra document before A.D 30 that support your position.

  61. I am still waiting for proof of a flesh and blood miracle worker,crucified and resurrected from the dead Jesus from you from the first century,where is all that claimed evidence?Now not only is christianity left without historical Jesus from the first century but you are left without the town of Nazareth in the first century.So when are you guys going to stop lying?You have claimed to send me a Red Herring,tossing the ball back to me but yet you have sent nothing,ZERO reliable evidence.All those evidences you claim from Josephus,Tacitus,the Talmud,Suetonius,C.Plinuis Secundus,Clement of Rome,Irenaeus,Polycarp have been shown for years to be Zero proof of a historical Jesus with good reasoning,if christian apologetics want to continue making fools of themselves it’s no skin off my back but i just hate to see you decieve others that don’t have time for serious research with your garbage.There is plenty of proof in the paste i sent you about Attis to show your theory is not based in truth,it is pure ignorance and stupidity to claim christianity did not copy off of pagan ancient sun god claims.They were first b y thousands of years.
    Jay

  62. Pryson,
    All you are doing is proving you know nothing as a scholar or about archaeology,you are quoting old christian apologetic lying claims.It’s a fact lately proving there was no Nazareth in the first century,that makes your claim of a town of Nazareth 500 B.C.nothing but an outright lie.You need to catch up on more modern archaeology.
    Below is one paste out of many asserting without question there was no town of Nazareth in the first century.

    Paste:The Way of Jesus the Nazarean

    It was into the ancient and mystical B’nai-Amen Temple of the Nazorean that Jesus was born; as it is written: “He shall be called a Nazorean!” (Matthew 2:23). This B’nai-Amen Temple was the advanced level of the Nazorean Covenant which brought forth the “Chosen Ones,” and is that advanced level of truth which Jesus has again restored and is again seeking to make available to all righteous Nazorean who wish to espouse its fullness.

    The quote above from Matthew 2:23 states a fact: Jesus was a Nazarene. But the verse also contains misleading information: ” . . . he made his home in a town called Nazareth, so that what had been spoken through the prophets might be fulfilled . . . ”

    What the writer of this verse intended to do was separate Jesus from the sect of Nazarenes — a group that considered themselves “Jews,” but whose teachings were quite different from those of the Sadducee and Pharisee Jews. Important information confirming this fact comes from Luke’s “Acts of the Apostles”:

    Acts: 24:5: “We have . . . found this man . . . a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes.” Acts 24:13: ” . . . I admit to you, that according to The Way, which they call a sect, I worship the God of our ancestors, believing everything laid down according to the law or written in the prophets.”

    Nazarene or Nazareth?

    A People Erased from Existence and The City That Never Was. The Disassociation of Jesus from the Holiest of Peoples.

    For 20 centuries, most of the life of Jesus has been hidden or suppressed, but modern archeological discoveries have now shed new light on his enigmatic life. Archeologists have now proven that the city of Nazareth did not exist until three centuries after his death, and questions long debated in scholarly circles are now coming to the forefront.

    Armed with ancient sources like the Dead Sea Scrolls, the papyrus books of Nag Hammadi, and the long overlooked writings from the early church, modern scholars and theologians are reconstructing the life and times of Jesus, and what they are finding is very different from the life and teachings we have been “led to believe.”

    Nazareth, The City That Never Was

    The evidence for a 1st century town of Nazareth does not exist – not literary, not archaeologically, and not historically.

    Biblical scholars and clergy alike have always had difficulty accepting the possibility that at the time of Jesus there was no city called “Nazareth.” They have always resisted this possibility and sometimes, quite vigorously.

    The Encyclopaedia Biblica, a work written by theologians, and perhaps the greatest biblical reference work in the English language, says: “We cannot venture to assert positively that there was a city of Nazareth in Jesus’ time.”

    Nazareth is not mentioned in any historical records or biblical texts of the time and receives no mention by any contemporary historian. Nazareth is not mentioned in the Old Testament, the Talmud (the Jewish law code), nor in the Apocrypha and it does not appear in any early rabbinic literature.

    Nazareth was not included in the list of settlements of the tribes of Zebulon (Joshua 19:10-16) which mentions twelve towns and six villages, and Nazareth is not included among the 45 cities of Galilee that were mentioned by Josephus (37AD-100AD), a widely traveled historian who never missed anything and who voluminously describes the region. The name is also missing from the 63 towns of Galilee mentioned in the Talmud.

    The first reference to Nazareth is in the New Testament where it can be found 29 different times. However, there is still cause for speculation as to whether or not the city existed at the time of Jesus. It is mentioned only in the Gospels and Acts. These books do refer to Nazareth, but they did not originate at this time, they are later writings. The earlier writings of the NT (Paul etc) mention Jesus 221 times – but never mention Nazareth.

    The Essenes, The Nazarenes

    At the time of Jesus, there were three major Jewish Sects. The Pharisees, the Sadducees, and the Essenes. The Pharisees and the Sadducees were relatively similar in their beliefs and traditions, but the Essenes were radically different and openly opposed the theology, doctrines, and the spiritual integrity of both the Pharisees and the Sadducees.

    There are numerous historical, literary and archaeological accounts of the existence of the Essenes, yet the bible is strangely silent about them. We know of their specific geographic locations throughout Egypt and ancient Palestine, we know of their customs and traditions, and we know the details of their deeply rooted spiritual convictions and of their esoteric religious beliefs.

    The word Essene is a collective term and is not necessarily a distinctive designation, just as the word Christian encompasses a wide base of institutionalized systems of religious beliefs, attitudes and practices. There are currently over 34,000 separate Christian groups that have been identified throughout the world. Most are independent churches.

    At the time of Jesus, there were three distinct Essenian groups that played important roles in his life, and their religious practices and spiritual theology mirror in his teachings. They were:

    The Theraputae of Egypt; where the infant Christ and his family fled during Herods rein.
    The Essenes of Qumran (Dead Sea Scrolls), the strict, celibate monastery of which John the Baptist was a part.
    The Nazarenes of Mount Carmel, the cooperative family village where Jesus lived and studied.
    Josephus and other classic writers tell us of the Essenes and their intense appreciation for the inspired Law of God and that they “strove to be like the angels of heaven.” They also opposed slavery, the sacrificing of animals and the eating of flesh.

    Their highest aim was to become fit temples of the Holy Ghost (1 Cor 6:19), to be healers and perform cures, especially spiritual cures, and to be spiritually qualified as forerunners of the Messiah, the latter being the primary spiritual focus of the Nazarenes of Mount Carmel.
    Jay

    • Jay, thank you for the pasting, but at least engage useful in them too. You have produce no evidence than empty claim that has no warrant.

      Even Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs affirms the existence of Nazareth, Ministry of Jesus of Nazareth, even though Jews do not consider him to be the Messiah 🙂

      “No proof can be give to a stone, for stones knows one thing, nothing.”Prayson

  63. Hello Prayson,
    About your #1.below,as stated before your Jesus the Nazerene could not be a Jesus of Nazareth in the first century because the town of Nazareth did not exist in the first century.#2.below,you have no desciple that claimed Jesus rose from the dead,none of the 4 gospel writers claim they witnessed the resurrection they claimed they heard it by second hand heresay.#3.below,the early movement did not worship him as god at first,but as the son of man.Tacitus is no proof of Jesus,the earliest manuscript of Tacitus(which may or may not be correct)dates to 11 A.D.the first time the passage you use as supposed proof of Jesus was not refered to even being in there until the 15th.century.I won’t go into it here but there are several other reasons why the Tacitus supposed passage is not reliable.Julius Africanus 200 years after the fact is supposedly quoting from Thallus a works that no longer exists as back up proof.Suetonius uses the word Chrestus(not Christus)that was a common word in the first century which only means “Good”or good one,it was a word even used for good slaves,good slaves were called Chrestus.Point me to a document before 100 A.D.that is reliable evidence the miracle worker,crucified and resurrected Jesus ever existed.
    Jay

    • Jay,

      On #1, I think you need to get your Archaeology study revised. Nazareth goes back to 500 BC(The New Encyclopedia of Archaeological Excavations in the Holy Land, Israeli Antiquities Society, V: El-Kaphza Cave, p.1414)

      On #2; Nearly all Scholars(even Skeptical and atheist one) agree that 1 Corinthians 15 Apostle creed goes back to 5 or less years of the Crucifixion of Jesus. This just refute your claim.

      On #3, It is not Tacitus dear friend, but C. Plinius Secundus, governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor letter to Emperor Trajan in AD 112. At least read and understand first 🙂.

      More over we have Church Father, Didache(50-120),1 Clement of Rome(80-140) Polycarp of the Phillippians(110-140), Ignatius of Antioch(105-115) and Irenaeus of Lyon(175-185) whom taught the deity of Jesus Christ and worshiped Him to mention the few.

      Jay, back up you claim with solid facts 🙂

      In Christ Jesus,
      Prayson

      On #4,

  64. Your research(refute) of Attis is far from getting deep enough to prove anything.You need to do some research into mythism so you understand it more fully.As long as you research from a christian biased perspective you will never have a truthful understanding.There is absolutely no doubt when properly researched that christianity copied off of earlier ancient Sun God beliefs.Jesus is “The Light Of The World”your N.T.claims.What is the light of the world?Of course the Sun is the light of the world,most of christianity claims Malachi 4:2 is about Jesus,notice there it is spelled there”SUN”in the N.T.they changed the spelling from “Sun of God”to “Son of God “,Psalms 84:11 KJV.says plainly the O.T.God is the SUN.there is evidence all over your Bible that it’s god(or trinity 3 GODS)is the SUN.Guys like you and other apologetics stick your head in the sand trying to claim christianity did not copy it’s belief off of earlier pagan ancient Sun God legends,myths,fables and tales.
    Jay

    • Please point to me other original documents which says otherwise, that I can get deep enough. Remember some of the quotation comes from Original Greeks documents on “Attis” in Refuting Attis Myth Parallelism To Christianity

      No one is biased free Jay. The question is not being bias, the question is what is the Truth.

      Sun and Son is just absurd because English Language did not exist in that period.

      We are all apologist, you are just on a different direction 🙂

      In Christ,
      Prayson

  65. You are the one who suggested i use the reply tab instead of this form which evidently you never get.here is one of the 3 emails i sent by reply copied and pasted i will re-send the other 2 this way also.
    Paste from original>>I used just clicking reply on your email one time but i didn’t think you used it because you didn’t answer it for several days so i copied and pasted it to your “Leave a Reply”a few days later.So i will send this answer by clicking reply and hope you get it.Not all scholars either atheist scholars or supposed biblical scholars agree with your claim that Jesus (that’s the N.T.Jesus miracle worker crucified and resurrected from the dead)was a flesh and blood person who walked on this earth in the first century.There are plenty of historians and scholars that do not agree with this claim.The ones who do claim he existed base this not on any reliable evidence but because there were many Jesus’es(people named Jesus)living in the first century,therefore they won’t claim there was no Jesus.I am not claiming there was no Jesus in the first century i am claiming there was no Jesus as the N.T.describes him,the miracle worker,crucified and resurrected from the dead Jesus.
    There were plenty of historians and philosophers living and writing in the first century and they wrote about trivial,small things,so had it actually have happened it’s a silly theory to think not one of them wrote about such an earth shaking event as a miracle worker,crucified and resurrected from the dead Jesus.There are other proofs there was no flesh and blood Jesus as the N.T.claims.There is not one shred of evidence in reliable history that Herod slaughtered up to 2 year old infants,you get that idea from second century writers,Josephus disliked Herod and wrote about many of his atrocities but he knows nothing of the Slaughter of the Innocents.But he wrote of smaller atrocities that Herod did.Guys like you like to quote Thallus as proof of a an earthquake and sun darkening at the crucifixtion,of course he could only be quoting christian heresay,meanwhile Seneca like Philo lived all the way through Jesus supposed time,Seneca tracked and wrote about earthquakes and sun eclipses but he knows nothing of an earthquake and sun darkening at the supposed time of the crucifixtion.You know an eclipse can not occur at the time of year of the Passover,so you must write it off as another miracle.Scientist have looked back to the supposed time of the crucifixtion earthquake and said there was none.The 4 gospel accounts are so riddled with holes,& disagreements between the writers about the supposed happenings surrounding the crucifixtion and resurrection that you can tell easily that they are not actual accounts.

    Yet another reason to know there was no Jesus of Nazareth in the first century is because the town of Nazareth has now been proved to have not existed in the first century,it is a town having it’s beginings in the second and third century,if the town of Nazareth did not exist in the first century then there could be no Jesus of Nazareth in the first century.In the first century where Nazareth supposedly was,was a massive grave yard in the first century with no live inhabitants.

    You are dead wrong below when you say the 4 gospels were named Matthew,Mark,Luke and John traditionally in 90 A.D.the gospel claimed authors as named above did not appear as the writers untill between 170-190 A.D.or at least 150 years after the supposed happenings they wrote about.They chose the 4 gospels out of dozens of other gospels that were writen in the first and second centurys and claimed them god inspired,why did they choose 4 gospels instead of maybe 2 or 6 Irenius(not spelled right)said there should be 4 gospels because there are 4 winds,North,South,East & West,does that show wisdom or ignorant ancient thinking?The 4 gospel writers are anonymous writers no one,ZERO knows who wrote the 4 gospels even their titles prove they are anonymous they say “According To”not writen by so and so.Also nowhere in the 4 gospels do the writers claim they themselves were eyewitnesses they claim to have got the tale from other supposed eyewitnesses.Stuff like this and much more is what you base your belief(Faith)in,you have Zero reliable evidence that the N.T.Jesus ever existed as a flesh and blood person.Certainly anyone should know the gospel of John was not writen by the claimed Apostle(desciple)John,the desciple John was an uneducated fisherman,the writer of the gospel John was an accomplished scholar.You have no supposed desciple being an eyewitness to the crucifiztion and resurrection,in fact you have no ZERO eyewitnesses,in the book of Acts it claims over 500 eyewitnesses of Jesus after the resurrection but not a one named by personal name,and who sat around and counted there were over 500 eyewitnesses?Christianity likes to date the 4 gospels as early as possible to make them seem more reliable but there are no original manuscripts,if there ever were any to date them by,there is far more proof and evidence that the 4 gospels are late second century writings rather than first century writings,i’ll be happy to supply you with that evidence if you want me to.Your N.T.Jesus tale is yet another ancient Sun God with a name change to Jesus instead of Mithra,Attis,and thousands of other ancient sun god’s.You are believing ancient legends,myths,fables and tales.You have no reliable proof all you have is faith (blind faith)the definition of faith is:Faith is a belief despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.It is really not that hard to prove christianity copied,counterfeited,adopted it’s religion off of earlier Sun God beliefs,christianity is far from being unique.
    Sincerely,without malice,
    Jay Osborne

    • Dear Jay,

      Thank you for your comment. I bit your red herring into Evidence for Jesus of Nazareth to which I see the direction to which it too. I will post an article on the Evidence for Jesus of Nazareth to which we will go deep into it.

      But here we have Mithra, You have not produce one evidence(original copy that backs up the myth story). Please direct me to a copy, not a 19th Germany Scholar or Wikipedia or Youtube, but a document to which back up the Mithra story:)?

  66. I have sent 3 replys to you using the reply tab instead of linking to your “Leave a Reply”page,none of those are posted here yet,neither have you answered them and sent to my email address.They were sent by me 3-4 days ago.
    Jay

    • I really do not know how to fix that problem. Could you not write on Word first then paste it to the answer by clicking “Reply” at the post you would like to comment?

  67. Response to your second email.It actually requires a pretty long answer but i may get so agravated at your “Leave a reply”jumping all over the page that i may quit.You keep wanting a document before 100 A.D.Where is your document from the first century from a historian or philosopher that shows proof and evidence that the 4 gospel N.T.Jesus was a flesh and blood person.I have told you there were many people named Jesus in the first century,that only proves there were people named Jesus,prove the miracle worker,crucified,resurrected Jesus was here flesh and blood in the first century?I can name you over 40 historians and philosophers living and writing in the first century and not one of them knows one thing about the N.T.Jesus.
    Even Philo born about 10 B.C.and dying about 45 A.D.who lived all the way through Jesus supposed time and who wrote extensively about he Jewish religion,even he knows ZERO about the N.T.Jesus.If you have done any study and research at all(unbiased) you should know Tacitus,Suetonius,The Talmud,Pliny,Josephus e.t.c.are no proof Jesus as a historical person.I’ll be glad to go through everyone of them and show you why they do not prove a historical Jesus,that is if you ever get your leave a reply page fixed.It does seem to be a little better so far.
    Don’t you know the 4 gospels are anonymous writers?They were not writen by any of the desciples,neither do the 4 gospel writers whover they were claim they were eyewitnesses.This stupid page is jumping all over the place again,i can’t type all left handed and hold the left mouse tab down while typing,it’s to agravating.Why don’t you respond stright to my email without going througgh leave a reply and then you post it on your leave a reply page?Not finished b ut goodbye
    Jay

    • Try to answer direct from you email by pressing reply.

      Jay, do you find yourself at odd that even Top Nontheist, Christian Critics Scholars of Jesus Seminar(Example John Dominic Crossan and Bart Ehrman) agree on Jesus of Nazareth, Death by Crucifixion, and disciples claim Him having resurrected?

      In deed “Jesus” was a common name, but remember in ancient time, they added where the person was from. Thus “Jesus of Nazareth” was not a common name:)

      Professor Graham Stanton(1940-2009) of Cambridge University and one of the great scholars states:

      “Today, nearly all historians, whether Christians or not, accept that Jesus existed and that the gospels contain plenty of valuable evidence which has to be weighed and assessed critically. There is general agreement that, with the possible exception of Paul, we know far more about Jesus of Nazareth than about any first or second century Jewish or pagan religious teacher.” (The Gospels and Jesus)

      John A. T. Robinson, New Testament scholar of Cambridge University, states that the burial of Jesus of Nazareth in the tomb is “one of the earliest and best-attested facts about Jesus.”(John A. T. Robinson, The Human Face of God (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1973), page 131.)

      The names of the 4 gospel authors were traditional held by the First Church fathers dating c 90 A.D. Give or take, it is the context and the dating of the context that matters most.

      BT: The Copy-Cat Theory was rejected in the academia in 20th Century. Dan Brown and Zeitgeist Movie is just echoing a dead theory to which no contemporary scholar holds any more because of two reasons:

        1. It is logically fallacious
        2. Fails the Historical investigation
  68. Since you like to send pastes or quotes,or links from supposed biblical scholars,i am sending a paste refuting your claim that Attis was after christianity and that christianity did not copy off of Attis plus it’s copied off of dozens(probably thousands)of other earlier than christianity Sun God claims,your research is poor or biased.Also you have not sent me any proof or evidence of Jesus from the first century.I will answer your other 2 emails later.
    PASTE:In many mythicist writings, the ancient Phrygo-Roman god Attis is depicted as having been born of a virgin mother on December 25th, being killed and resurrecting afterwards. Here we shall examine the evidence for these contentions, which parallel the gospel story and Christian tradition concerning Jesus Christ.

    Providing a summary of the mythos and ritual of Attis, along with comparisons to Christian tradition, professor of Classics and Ancient History at the University of Manchester Dr. Andrew T. Fear states:

    The youthful Attis after his murder was miraculously brought to life again three days after his demise. The celebration of this cycle of death and renewal was one of the major festivals of the metroac cult. Attis therefore represented a promise of reborn life and as such it is not surprising that we find representations of the so-called mourning Attis as a common tomb motif in the ancient world.

    The parallel, albeit at a superficial level, between this myth and the account of the resurrection of Christ is clear. Moreover Attis as a shepherd occupies a favourite Christian image of Christ as the good shepherd. Further parallels also seem to have existed: the pine tree of Attis, for example, was seen as a parallel to the cross of Christ.

    Beyond Attis himself, Cybele too offered a challenge to Christian divine nomenclature. Cybele was regarded as a virgin goddess and as such could be seen as a rival to the Virgin Mary… Cybele as the mother of the Gods, mater Deum, here again presented a starkly pagan parallel to the Christian Mother of God.

    There was rivalry too in ritual. The climax of the celebration of Attis’ resurrection, the Hilaria, fell on the 25th of March, the date that the early church had settled on as the day of Christ’s death…. (Lane, 39-40)

    As we can see, according to this scholar, Attis is killed, fixed to a tree, and resurrects after three days, while his mother is “regarded as a virgin goddess” comparable to the Virgin Mary.

    These conclusions come from the writings of ancient Pagans, as well as the early Church fathers, including Justin Martyr, Clement of Alexandria, Hippolytus, Tatian, Tertullian, Augustine, Arnobius and Firmicus Maternus.

    Born of the Virgin Nana
    The Phrygian god Attis’s mother was variously called Cybele and Nana. Like the Egyptian goddess Isis and the Christian figure Mary, Nana/Cybele is a perpetual virgin, despite her status as a mother. The scholarly term used to describe virgin birth is “parthenogenesis,” while many goddesses are referred to as “Parthenos,” the Greek word meaning “virgin.” This term is applicable to the Phrygian goddess Cybele/Nana as well.

    “Attis is the son of Cybele in her form as the virgin, Nana.”

    The diverse names of Attis’s mother and her manner of impregnation are explained by Dr. David Adams Leeming , professor emeritus of English and comparative literature at the University of Connecticut:

    Attis is the son of Cybele in her form as the virgin, Nana, who is impregnated by the divine force in the form of a pomegranate.

    Regarding Nana, in Virgin Mother Goddesses of Antiquity (111), Dr. Marguerite Rigoglioso states:

    …Another instance of spontaneous conception occurred when Nana, whose very name was one by which the Great Goddess was known, became pregnant simply by eating the tree’s fruit…

    December 25th
    The “December 25th” or winter-solstice birth of the sun god is a common theme in several cultures around the world over the past millennia, including the Egyptian, among others. As it is for the Perso-Roman god Mithra, the Egyptian god Horus and the Christian godman Jesus, this date has likewise been claimed for Attis’s nativity as well. For example, Barbara G. Walker (77) writes:

    Attis’s passion was celebrated on the 25th of March, exactly nine months before the solstitial festival of his birth, the 25th of December. The time of his death was also the time of his conception, or re-conception.

    “Each year, Attis was born at the winter solstice.”

    In this same regard, Shirley Toulson (34) remarks:

    In the secret rites of this Great Mother the young god Attis figured as her acolyte and consort…. Each year he was born at the winter solstice, and each year as the days shortened, he died.

    The reasoning behind this contention of the vegetative and solar god Attis’s birth at the winter solstice is sound enough, in that it echoes natural cycles, with the god’s death at the vernal equinox also representing the time when he is conceived again, to be born nine months later.

    Moreover, at times the young Attis was merged with Mithra, whose birthday was traditionally held on December 25th and with whom he shared the same Phrygian capped attire.

    Marble bust of Attis wearing Phrygian cap
    2nd cent. ad/ce
    (Paris)

    Mithra in a Phrygian cap
    2nd cent. ad/ce
    Rome, Italy
    (British Museum, London)

    Crucified
    The myths of Attis’s death include him being killed by a boar or by castrating himself under a tree, as well as being hung on a tree or “crucified.” Indeed, he has been called the “castrated and crucified Attis.” (Harari, 31) It should be noted that the use of the term “crucified” as concerns gods like Horus and Attis does not connote that he or they were thrown to the ground and nailed to a cross, as we commonly think of crucifixion, based on the Christian tale. In reality, there have been plenty of ancient figures who appeared in cruciform, some of whose myths specifically have them punished or killed through crucifixion, such as Prometheus.

    “The god has been called the ‘castrated and crucified Attis.'”

    Moreover, Attis is said to have been “crucified” to a pine tree, while Christ too was related as being both crucified and hung on a tree (Acts 5:30 ; 10:39 ). As stated by La Trobe University professor Dr. David John Tacey (110):

    Especially significant for us is the fact that the Phrygian Attis was crucified upon the tree…

    In antiquity, these two concepts were obviously similar enough to be interchangeable in understanding.

    Tomb/Three Days/Resurrected
    We have already seen Dr. Fear’s commentary that Attis was dead for three days and was resurrected, worth reiterating here:

    “The youthful Attis after his murder was miraculously brought to life again three days after his demise.”

    The death and resurrection in three days, the “Passion of Attis,” is also related by Professor Merlin Stone (146):

    Roman reports of the rituals of Cybele record that the son…was first tied to a tree and then buried. Three days later a light was said to appear in the burial tomb, whereupon Attis rose from the dead, bringing salvation with him in his rebirth.

    Concerning the discovery of a throne at Herculaneum, Italy, buried in the eruption of Mt. Vesuvius in 79 AD/CE, archaeologist Dr. Mark Merrony remarks:

    …Unusually, the throne is carved with scenes depicting the mystery cult of Attis, which spread to Rome from Turkey via Greece during the reign of Claudius (AD 41-54). Essentially, historical texts indicate that this cult was concerned with the life, death, and resurrection of the goddess, and involved several key stages enacted in March: the procession of the reed-bearers and flute-blowers; the entrance of the sacred pine tree; the burial of the effigy of Attis strapped to a stake; mourning, sacrifice, and bloodletting; and the resurrection of Attis. The best-preserved scene on the throne shows the deity collecting a pine cone next to a sacred pine tree.

    There is a debate as to when the various elements were added to the Attis myth and ritual. Contrary to the current fad of dismissing all correspondences between Christianity and Paganism, the fact that Attis was at some point a “dying and rising god” is concluded by Dr. Tryggve Mettinger, a professor of Old Testament Studies at the University of Lund and author of The Riddle of the Resurrection, who relates: “Since the time of Damascius (6th cent. ad/ce), Attis seems to have been believed to die and return.” (Mettinger, 159) By that point, we possess clear discussion in writing of Attis having been resurrected, but when exactly were these rites first celebrated and where? Attis worship is centuries older than Jesus worship and was popular in some parts of the Roman Empire before and well into the “Christian era.”

    In the case of Attis, we possess a significant account of his death and mourning in the writings of the Greek historian of the first century BCE, Diodorus Siculus (3.58.7), including the evidently annual ritual creation of his image by priests, indicative of his resurrection. Hence, these noteworthy aspects of the Attis myth are clearly pre-Christian. The reason these motifs are common in many places is because they revolve around nature worship, solar mythology and astrotheology.
    From me>Remember different nations made different claims about the same Sun God’s.Sometime you have to look into the sun god myths used by different nations which may or may not be the same sun god.
    Jay

    • Dear Jay,

      I wrote a refutation for Attis connection to Christianity, see question paused by The Truth above and my reply(I answered some of the connection you mention above on the same reply to “The Truth”).

      You have not name even one original document to support your claim, What you named is a quote of a quote of a quote! I wrote Refuting Attis Myth Parallelism To Christianity to which I attached the same of the original documents(To which I will do so with other gods).

      BT: You can answer the comment direct from your email. Simply press reply in your email.

      “No one is bias free” Prayson

  69. We had tornado’s and high winds here my phone service(plus ISP service) was interupted so i have been unable to get back online untill 9:30 this morning.I am in no hurry but you said you’d get back to me in 24 hours concerning my last email,it’s been well over 24 hours and you have not answered.One other thing i will add is when you are researching ancient pagan sun gods and comparing them with christianity you may have to research the same sun god by going through different nations beliefs about the same sun god as different nations added differences in their claims about Sun God’s.
    If you are looking for similarities between christianity and pagan sun god claims you can find everyone of the things claimed by your N.T.that Jesus supposedly did not in each sun god claim but you may find in one that they healed the sick,in another that they raised the dead,in another the virgin birth,in another walking on water,still others crucified,resurrected from the dead and ascending to heaven.Your reply site is no better still jumping all over the place while i try to type,to agravating to continue.
    Jay Osborne

    • Hej Jay,

      Sorry the reply did take long time. Having a wife is a full time job 🙂

      Back to the topic: I will catch the ball that you threw back 🙂

      Almost 99.9% of New Testament Historians and Scholars, Atheist/Skeptics(Also From Jesus Seminary) and Christian Historian agree the following about Jesus.

      1. Jesus, the Nazarene was put to death(crucified) by Pilate:

      2. His disciple claimed that He rose again(a claim that cost their lives)

      3. The Early movement worship Him as God

      Sources used:

      I. N.T(Mostly the saying 1 Corinthian 15 is believed by both Non-theist and theist Scholars to go to less than 5 years after crucifixion of Jesus)

      One of the top Christian Critic Scholar, John Dominic Crossan correctly observes,

      “Paul needs in 1 Cor. 15 to equate his own experience with that of the preceding apostles. To equate, that is, its validity and legitimacy, but not necessarily its mode or manner. Jesus was revealed to all of them, but Paul’s own entranced revelation should not be presumed to be the model for all others.”(Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography (San Francisco: Harper SanFrancisco, 1994), p. 169)

      II. Tacitus; writing between 116
      III: Julius Africanus AD 221 quoting the work Thallus(52 A.D)
      IV: Early Church Father(<200 A.D)

      More:

      C. Plinius Secundus, governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor letter in AD 112 to Emperor Trajan, reads:

      “It is a rule, Sir, which I inviolably observe, to refer myself to you in all my doubts; for who is more capable of guiding my uncertainty or informing my ignorance?” Having never been present at any trials of the Christians, I am unacquainted with the method and limits to be observed either in examining or punishing them …

      In the meanwhile, the method I have observed towards those who have been denounced to me as Christians is this: I interrogated them whether they were Christians; if they confessed it I repeated the question twice again, adding the threat of capital punishment; if they still persevered, I ordered them to be executed …

      Those who denied they were, or had ever been, Christians, who repeated after me an invocation to the Gods, and offered adoration, with wine and frankincense, to your image, which I had ordered to be brought for that purpose, together with those of the Gods, and who finally cursed Christ none of which acts, it is said, those who are really Christians can be forced into performing these I thought it proper to discharge …

      They affirmed, however, the whole of their guilt, or their error, was, that they were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food but food of an ordinary and innocent kind … I therefore adjourned the proceedings, and betook myself at once to your counsel. For the matter seemed to me well worth referring to you, especially considering the numbers endangered. Persons of all ranks and ages, and of both sexes are, and will be, involved in the prosecution.” (Pliny, Epistles 10.96)

      In short, Plinius asks advice from Trajan on what to do with Christians who are worshiping Jesus as Godand taking the Lords Supper, less than 80 years of Jesus death. Myth usually take between two to three generation to be formed but here we have a period to which some of the people who were present at Jesus time still alive(same generation).

      Suetonius A.D 120 in Life of Nero(xvi.2)

      “Punishment was inflicted on the Christians, a class of men addicted to a novel and mischievous superstitions”

      Cornelius Tacitus, great Roman historian write history of the reign of Nero A.D. 54-68:

      “Therefore, to scotch the rumor Nero substituted as culprits, and punished with the utmost refinements of cruelty, a class of men, loathed for their vices, whom the crowd styled Christians. Christus, the founder of the name, had undergone the death penalty in the reign of Tiberius, by sentence of the procurator Pontius Pilatus, and the pernicious superstition was checked for a moment, only to break out once more, not merely in Judea, the home of the disease, but in the capital itself, where all things horrible or shameful in the world collect and find a vogue … “They (Christians) were covered with wild beasts’ skins and torn to death by dogs; or they were fastened on crosses, and, when daylight failed were burned to serve as lamps by night. Nero had offered his gardens for the spectacle, and gave an exhibition in his circus, mixing with the crowd in the habit of a charioteer, or mounted on his car. Hence, in spite of a guilt which had earned the most exemplary punishment, there arose a sentiment of pity, due to the impression that they were being sacrificed not for the welfare of the state but to the ferocity of a single man.” (Tacitus, Annals, Loeb edition 15. 44, words in brackets added.)

      Flavius Joesphus (lived 37 A.D. – 100 A.D.) writes:

      “Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod’s army came from God, and that very justly, as a punishment of what he did against John, that was called the Baptist; for Herod slew him, who was a good man, and commanded the Jews to exercise virtue, both as to righteousness towards one another, and piety towards God, and so to come to baptism; for that the washing [with water] would be acceptable to him, if they made use of it, not in order to the putting away, [or the remission] of some sins [only,] but for the purification of the body; supposing still that the soul was thoroughly purified beforehand by righteousness.

      Now, when many others came to crowd about him, for they were greatly moved by hearing his words, Herod, who feared lest the great influence of John had over the people might put it into his power and inclination to raise a rebellion, (for they seemed ready to do anything he should advise,) thought it best, by putting him to death, to prevent any mischief he might cause, and not to bring himself into difficulties, by sparing a man who might make him repent of it when it should be too late.” (Antiquities of the Jews, book eighteen, chapter five, paragraph two)

      I have a good post on Did Josephus Refer to Jesus? Were the Historian try to find what part of Josephus work is original.

      Suetonius writes in A.D 120

      “Because the Jews at Rome caused continuous disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus he [Emperor Claudius] expelled them from the city.”(Suetonius, Claudius, quoted from Gary R. Habermas, The Historical Jesus (1996), page 191. Word in brackets added.)

      There also a great deal of first Church Fathers writings: The Early Church Fathers on Jesus

      Thus there is no serious scholar Atheist or Theist that does not affirm Christ Jesus lived, killed(c 30 or 33 A.D) and the his followers claimed that He rose again.

      I am throwing the ball back to you again:

      If you can point to me a document before A.D 100 which refute my position(Christianity is not copy from Sun god Myths but the other way around) then I will consider your position(i.e Wikipedia or 1900s Germany scholars are unacceptable).

      For More On Historical Jesus On My Blog:

      Contemporary Scholarship and the Historical Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ

      The Historicity of the Empty Tomb of Jesus

  70. What about Horus, Attis, Krishna, and Dionysus? It seems that Jesus was based on these historical figures as well.

    • Hej The Truth,

      Horus, Attis, Krishna and Dionysus are not historical figures sadly.

      I have refuted Attis connection to Christianity here:

      Refuting Attis Myth Parallelism To Christianity

      I am writing the same refutation for Horus and Krishna at the moment. I can give you same of the Highlight of Horus, and Krishna.

      Horus And Christ Jesus

      Claims;
      Horus born on December 25th , born of a virgin, star in the east, adorned by 3 kinds, teacher at 12, baptized and started ministry at 30 and have 12 disciples, performed miracles, lamb of God, the light, crucified, dead for 3 days and resurrected in Egypt 3000 BC.

      Historical Fact According to Horus Myth:

      Horus was born to Isis; “M”eri is common title given to any Egyptian god or goddess that was loved. Example Meri-Maat, a goddess of harmony, justice, and truth represented as a young woman, Meri-Bast(Bastet), a goddess of happiness and joy manifested as a woman with a cat’s head, who carried a sistrum in her right hand and a basket in her left; she wore an aegis or a breastplate surmounted with the head of a lioness, and also Kings and Queens of Egypt. Example; Amen-meri-Uasarken(Osorkon I and II), Amen-Meri-Auset-meri-thakeleth(Takeleth I), Amen-meri-Shash II, Amen-meri-Peta-se-Bast, Amen-meri-Pa-mai. Thus nothing special with letter M

      Isis was not a virgin; She was a widow of Osiris who conceived Horus with Osiris sexual organ.

      Horus is born during month of Khoiak, Todays dating: between October and November, not December 25th(BT: Dec 25 is useless in Christianity, it is unknown when Jesus was born)

      No account record of three kings visiting Horus at birth(BT: No three kings in Jesus story anyway, they were “Magi”/wisemen from the east, and the number is unknown)

      Horus did not have a ministry nor did he have 12 disciples. Historical documents of the mythical accounts of Horus, records him having four semi-gods that were followers and some indications of 16 human followers and an unknown number of blacksmiths that went into battle with him.

      Horus was not a savior in any shape or form. He saved his dads”Osiri” Kingdom from Set
      Remember Savior in Christianity is not like a doctor saving lives, but savior from eternal damnation.

      No account record of him being a teacher at age 12

      Horus was not baptized. The only recorded incident that Horus in water is the story of him being torn to pieces, with Iris requesting the crocodile god to fish him out go the water he was placed into.
      No account records Horus being betrayed by a friend(Remember here the confuse Osiri, the Father and Horus)

      Horus did not die by crucifixion( BT: According to Historical data at 3000 BC crucification was not yet invented or practiced) Horus/Osiri was dismembered by Set and his body-parts being scattered throughout the earth.

      Horus did not die a death for others.

      Horus was not buried for three days, and no resurrection(Some accounts record Horus/Osiris being brought back to life by Isis and made a lord of underworld(This is zombification not resurrection), not allowed on the World of living.

      Thus Christians copying from Horus is a pure myth 🙂

      Krishna and Christ Jesus

      Claims; Born of a virgin, star in the east, performed miracles and resurrected, India 900 BC.

      Historical Facts of Krishna Myths

      Krishna is the eighth child of Devaki, thus not a virgin birth. The conception of Krishna when the hairs of the head of Vishnu was placed in Devaki’s womb in Eighth incarnation of Vishnu. No mentions of eastern star.

      Krishna was killed by an arrow from Jara the hunter who accidentally mistake Krishna with a deer shot him in the heal( Mahabharata, Book 16,4)

      According to Dr. Edwin Bryant, Professor of Hinduism at Rutgers University, who also translated the Bhagavata-Purana(“The Life of Krishna”) , “There is no Indian gods portrayed as crucified”

      No modern atheist/non-theist New Testament or serious Historian scholars holds on Copy-Cat theory to refute Christianity, it is simply a Historical failure.

      Your avatar name is The Truth, I will challenge you to leave up to that name. Do your own research, not on Wikipedia or Youtube gossips. Go deep, Go for The Truth 🙂

      Prayson

      • you explain that they are not historical figures and then use a lack of historical record to refute their connection to the story of Christ. laughable!!!! Also, don’t preach truth when an incredible amount of what your bible says has been proven untrue. Please and Thank you.

        • Hej Antony.

          Thank you for your comments. Could you be kind to explain your background for I can tell from your comments that you hurt or angry with Christianity or(and) Christians. I wish to answer your comments but I found very positive to know the person I answer, so I my be sensitive, kind, gentle and with patience.

          Yours,
          Prayson

      • I’ve not been hurt by Christianity/Christians(though millions others have throughout time). I was raised to be Christian, attended church and sunday school every week of my youth and made friends I still hold dear and have great memories. However, when I grew up I began to question my faith. The more I read the more I realized the glaring hypocrisies present in the bible, Christianity, and all world religions. I haven’t ruled out the possibility of something great or higher than we can imagine. However, history has clearly and consistently proven the bible to be unfounded and incorrect time after time after time. I find it humorous that you can write an article using empirical evidence to support your claims yet ignore it all together when your faith is concerned. One cannot exist in the realm of logic and reason and credibly in the same breath believe in things that are impossible to prove and have been proposed by people who have a track record of very “un-godly” knowledge and behavior. In short, people won’t respect your research and logical assertions when you refuse to do so with your conviction.

        • Well, it was great to know a little about you, Antony. I can read myself in your position. I too walked out of Church when I began questioning everything. As long as you have not rule out a possibility of a higher being then I will encourage you to keep searching. 🙂

          Since we are in a post that does not discuss the issue of the truthfulness of the Bible nor existence of God, will it be fine with you to take this question in another post. I could make an article to address or discuss the issue you rose. Would that be fair with you Antony?

          Prayson

      • I appreciate it but there simply is no verifiable evidence to support your beliefs. An article is not necessary as there is nothing you can say that I haven’t already heard and seen refuted. Religion was created to answer the unanswerable as it was created long before modern science. Every year another discovery is made that lays waste to theories proposed by the bible. I’m an agonostic because I don’t want to claim I understand all things we haven’t learned yet. I cannot answer everything because as a species we aren’t advanced enough, but I cannot blindly believe theories that are embarrassingly outdated. (take the age or the shape of the earth for instance.) The religious do that with an inherent arrogance. I’m also not self centered enough to believe that if one being created all that there is, he would care how long my hair was, or who I had sex with. I’m intelligent enough to realize that the inspired word of an all knowing and loving god would not condone rape, slavery, oppression of women and murdering your children.

        You didn’t really question everything. If you had actually allowed reason to take the reins from blind faith for even a day you wouldn’t be a Christian.

        Also, I don’t SEARCH for a higher power. When I cannot explain something I don’t automatically default to the supernatural. That type of thinking has slowed down the progress of humanity enough, I’d prefer not to contribute to that.

        • Well Antony I thought we could look and see if what you say is true. But if you there is nothing I could offer as I assumed then I am of no help 🙂

          Keep searching, keep doubting and keep studying Antony. I will be here if you need me to reexamine Christianity and see if what you say, assumed no evidence, is true.

          Have a brilliant evening Antony. It was an honor to have you visit my blog.

          Prayson

      • I appreciate it. I don’t need you to re-examine anything. I have plenty of questions, spiritually/scientifically and otherwise that I hope will be answered in my life time. It’s been years however since I’ve held Christianity to be even worthy of consideration. It would not really be worth discussing. I just wanted to point out a contradiction that I noticed upon reading this. You’ve successfully killed me with kindness and I will go. I hope someday you’ll be able to accept the world for what it is and free yourself from ancient theories proposed by men with little knowledge of their planet. Every young child who is without this indoctrination is a step in the right direction. The world becomes increasingly secular every year and we are very close to completely ridding this primitive ideology from the mainstream in most 1st world countries. I hope someday you’ll catch up.

  71. You need to work on your “Leave a Reply”site,the thing continually jumps back up where you have already typed at causing me to hold the left mouse tab down in order to type below what is already typed.Very agravating.
    Jay

  72. From what i can make out from your article above you seem to be stating there were no dying and resurrecting Savior Sun God’s before christianity and seem to be saying the copy-cat theory bounced off of christianity and noit the other way around.If that is what you are claiming then you are dead wrong.I am not arguing this if you are trying use Mithra,because there is not much info about Mithra.Justin Martyr plainly shows there were dying and resurrecting Savior Sun God’s long before christianity when he tried to convert Trypho the pagan to christianity.Here is a copy and paste quote from Justin Martyr:Paste:And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter. Yes i have read on a couple of sites where christian scholars have twisted like a snake trying to say Justin wasn’t saying this but yet if you read further Justin knew Jesus was a copy-cat and he tried to get around it claiming the Devil got there first.
    So anyone saying there were not Dying and resurrecting Savior Sun God’s virgin born on Dec.25th before christianity is nothing but a liar.Even your O.T.shows that theory is not so.Jer.10:2-5 shows what later was called Christmas was a pagan Sun God custom condemned,Ezek.8:14-16 shows an Easter sunrise service condemned so it takes an idiot to claim christianity did not copy off of ancient sun god customs and not the other way around.Christianity copied everything from pagans.
    Sincerely,
    Jay Osborne

    • Dear Jay,

      Thank you for your comment.

      Justin Martyr([a.d. 110–165) in deed does answer the question of the on going “dying and resurrecting Savior Sun” but you forgot to notice that Mithra and other cults writings of dying and raising gods came out c. 100 after Christianity had already started to gain momentum in the Roman culture. One of the possible reason was that they wanted their cults to be accepted as Christianity was.

      After studying Mithra-ism and other cults(gods of Egypt,Greek, India) writing’s before Christianity, I and great number of scholars found no evidence of dying and raising gods. If you can point to me a document before A.D 100 which refute my position then I will consider your position(i.e Wikipedia or 1900s Germany scholars are unacceptable).

      N.B: the cults were before Christianity, but their claims of dying and raising gods comes after Christianity.

      Plus even if it is true that in other cults there are dying and raising gods, its is logically fallacious to conclude that Christians copied it.

      And using of Christian terminology(baptism, Savior, Lord supper)to describe other cult is forcing similarity as one read Christianity into other cults. A normal doctor is a savior of life, but we can not equate this with the Jews use of savior(anointed one). Baptism is more than going into water, thus a person being in water is not baptism. This is so with Lord supper, which is not just sharing of food.

      December 25(Christmas) is useless in Christianity because according to the historical data, we do not know when Jesus was born, and it is unlikely Jesus was born in Winter(Shepherds were not in the field in time of Winter). December 25 came into Christianity over 300 years later.

      Thank you again

      • Your excuses are the biggest cop-out christianity uses trying to get out of christianity not being a copy-cat religion.It is pure biased ignorance or cover up.By the same theory you use i can prove Jesus ever existed as a historical flesh and blood person ever walking this earth.You have no first century historian or philosopher that knows one thing about a miracle worker,crucified and resurrected from the dead Jesus.Yes there were many people named Jesus in the first century but you have ZERO evidence of the 4 gospel N.T.miracle worker,crucified and resurrected from the dead Jesus from the first century.The Josephus couple of paragraphs you use which is the only claim you have from the first century even a peon can figure out it was forged(interpolated)into his writings in the third century.Beside that Josephus is not contemprary with Jesus supposed time.
        I challenge you to prove that Jesus the miracle worker ever existed from first century writings,second century writings are worthless because we know Paul started christianity around 50-60 A.D.so by the second century you see myths and fables creeping into christianity.All you could be is a biased christian scholar because there is plenty of evidence christianity is a sun god copy-cat religion.Dying and resurrecting Savior Sun God’s can be traced all the way back to the earlist civikization leaving records,the Sumerians.On clay cunciform clay tablets they dug up and deciphered that the Sumerians had Savior Sun God’s that were claimed died and resurrected on the third day which has to do with the winter equinox which occurs now on Dec.21st.to Dec.25th.when the sun seems to die (shortest day of the year)and then is re-born 3 days later on Dec.25th.as the days begin to get longer.Of course i know Jesus wasn’t supposedly born on Dec.25th.because the shepherds were still in the fields,but that doesn’t stop christianity from counterfeiting it to Jesus,christianity counterfeited all their christian customs from the pagan sun god worship in an effort to draw the pagans into christianity.I suggest you show you are an un-biased scholar by doing a much better research and investigation into the FACT that christianity copied,counterfeited,adopted paganism into the christian religion,and that the Hebrews counterfeited their one nation God off of the Sumerians Sun God’s.
        The flood,snake(serpent)story,7th.day sun god worship,a similar (different names)Adam and Eve,Garden of Eden(different name)a person like Abraham and much more biblical claims can be found on clay tablets from the Sumerian culture at least 1200 years before there ever was a nation called Israelites or Hebrews.And yes if you dig long & hard you can find these Dying and resurrecting Sun God’s dozens of them all having claims of virgin births,dying and resurrecting then ascending to heaven all over ancient history long before christianity.It took me over 8 years of long hard study to dig it out.While realizing there is not a lot of info on Mithra,at least it’s known the Mithra belief was accepted by the Roman Empire(at least the military)about 80 B.C.and long before christianity.So Mithraism was first.It really gets me why biased christians like yourself simply lie that christianity did not copy it’s religion off of earlier Sun God legends,myths,fales and tales.It’s as obvious as the nose on your face.
        You probably don’t even know Troas where Paul was from was a Mithra belief hub?And Paul although he would have been alive at the supposed time of the crucifixtion knows absolutely nothing about a flesh and blood Jesus,the Jesus he knows is a vision on the road to Damascus,he knows nothing of a virgin birth,Jesus parables,the Sermon on the Mount or anything else about a flesh and blood Jesus.Send me evidence and proof of the miracle worker,crucified and resurrected Jesus from the first century when your N.T.claims he was here?With some serious research you can prove yourself christianity copied off of earlier sun god beliefs.
        Sincerely,without malice,
        Jay Osborne

        P.S.Mistake above ,Paul was from Tarsus not Troas AS I STATED ABOVE.Tarsus was a Mithra hub.

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  74. Some interesting points there. I hadn’t realised that the Mithras cult was so separate from mainstream Zoroasterism or that it post dated Christianity.

    Thanks for enlightening me.

    • Hej Historyscientist,

      Mithraism cult worship is pre-Christian but the Virgin birth, and much of other Christain-like ideas evolved after Christianity.

      Thank you for your comment

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